Damn if we aren’t trying to limit our quota of stories about stories in the foreign press about Hungary, but damn is it getting hard. After years of being treated as a virtual no-go-zone by the New York Times, the broke-but-still-agenda-setting broadsheet published big and tortured pieces about our little and tortured country two days running. First up is today’s lavish cover piece about Hungary’s Roma (Gypsy) minority, and the seething cauldron of ethnic hatred and violence the country they are doomed to live in has become. Unfortunately, the story, by Berlin bureau chief Nicholas Kulish (above right), is a seething cauldron of maudlin sentiment and unsupported supposition:
TISZALOK, Hungary — Jeno Koka was a doting grandfather and dedicated worker on his way to his night-shift job at a chemical plant last week when he was shot dead at his doorstep. To his killer, he was just a Gypsy, and that seems to have been reason enough.
Meanwhile, yesterday’s “Week in Review” section offered this first-person essay by the paper’s (black!) international business editor Marcus Mabry about how much swankier Budapest has become in the 20 years since he was here as an exchange student, and what a damn shame it would be if the current economic crisis put an end to all this post-Soviet spiffiness:
When I returned to Budapest last month, I was once again amazed. After two decades of economic and political liberalization, the city’s potential was no longer hidden, glimpsed like a shadow disappearing around a corner. Budapest had become a dream realized, full of world-class hotels, ubiquitous construction cranes, mansions and museums scrubbed clean. Stylish women and men filled the subways and sidewalks. The stores were full to bursting, with local products as well as global brands. Hungary, it struck me, was part of Europe again.
Of course, Mabry’s piece never gets around to saying what exactly might happen to Budapest if the wheels really come off the international economy, other than hinting that it might not be so full of stylish men and women in the subways and sidewalks. Though unlike Kulish, who outlandishly leads off by trying to get into the mind of a killer the police say they haven’t even identified (“he was just a Gypsy, and that seems to have been reason enough”) at least he only tries to get into his own mind.
So there you have it: the newspaper that once set the world standard for classic “who what when where why and how” journalism finally decides to “flood the zone” on Hungary, and the best it can do is a pair of color pieces that do little but further feed the obvious but dubious clichés of Hungary as throwback to 1930s economic collapse and fascism. Even though it’s all so predictable, this kind of crude stereotyping is still sort of sad – especially when you consider how entertaining it might have been had they switched the two reporters for the weekend.
Kudos to the Times: the lethal violence against Roma is one of the most under-reported stories of the year.
@Mokus: I’d hardly say it’s underreported, compared to (for example) the recent mob attacks on Hungarians and Poles in Ireland. And even if it were underreported, that lede and the story that follows are still pretty bogus, given the lack of firm evidence that the guy was popped for being a Roma, or even evidence that there is an upswing in anti-Roma violence in Hungary – much less one driven by “economic turmoil.”
Nah – it’s under-reported.
Under-reported? You gotta be kidding! Who told you that?
@Mokus, how about this for underreported: a gypsy entering the house of the Magyar Gárda founder in Vecsés and holding him and his family at a gun point (actually holding a gun inches from the child’s head) and threatening with an all-out massacre?
I agree with khaver Mukus. ‘The lethal violence against Roma’ is as under reported as Martians landing in New Jersey. And, I’m talking *less than zero* reporting here. (Which is not the business the ?ew York Times is in, anyway.)
Umm. Let’s see now. That article breathlessly mentions 7 murdered Roma in the last year.
Estimates vary, but there are 450,000 to 1 million Roma in Hungary, out of a total Hungarian population of 10,000,000. Let’s lowball it and go with 450,000. With 7 murders in one year, that translates to a homicide rate for Roma of 1.55 per 100,000.
Now let’s look at the homicide rate in the country as a whole. In Hungary over the last few years it’s been holding steady at around 2.1 per 100,000 inhabitants.
So, according to these statistics, you’re slightly less likely to be murdered in this country if you’re Roma. If you go with the higher estimate of the size of the Roma population, you’re dramatically better off.
Or am I missing something?
Of course I’m only including murder here — I can’t really speak to the statistics regarding non-lethal violence. All the same, it’s pretty dumb of the Times to talk of 7 murders like it’s extraordinary.
S:
“am I missing something?”
Only one minor(ity) detail: many of those gypsies were killed by other gypsies. Looks like the poor
“victims of racial hate war” are actually the victims of their own violent criminal lifestyle.
If they want “political asylum” in the USA, they are in for a nasty surprise: the US has the largest prison population in the world, not much love there for criminal behavior.
Well done S (comment #7). Something about cold, objective facts that can put an end to inflated histrionics.
And what planet is this Mokus from? Nearly every article in Western press about Hungary after transition has featured breathless reporting on the horrors of Hungarian anti-Romaism and anti-Semitism — always “on the rise.” “On the rise” for 20 years now! Total rubbish.
The murders were most likely done by the gypsy usury men’s mobsters as it previously turned out before in many cases. Also SZDSZ and some gypsy leaders like to jump to conclusions even without waiting for the end of the investigation and collectively blame Hungarians for the crimes. Even worse, they use their excellent media connections (just like the New York Times) to let the English speaking world know about ‘the heinous crimes done by Hungarians against gypsies’. The problem is that New York Times and their SZDSZ buddies in Hungary are not telling the whole truth again.
Remember the New York Times reporting incorrectly last time by putting the Szekelys into a separate ethnic group from Hungarians?
The Times need to do a much better job to independently investigat the issues they write about instead of just believing their SZDSZ buddies in Hungary who distort the truth in the majority of the cases.
I do not even want to talk about how many Hungarians were murdered by gypsies and how interestingly this fact skipped the attention of the New York Times. Remember the brutally murdered and raped girl in Kiskunlachaza? The teacher who was lynched by the gypsy mob in Olaszliszka? The Romanian sportsman stabbed to death by a gypsy mobster? I can go on and on and come up with at least 10 more different cases done by gypsies easily from the top of my head to contrast the cases described in the New York Times. But I won’t do it because of the lack of space and because blaming each other will not solve anything. Honest discussion will.
Murder is wrong, period. It does not matter who does it and for what reason.
Honest and open discussion is needed to solve the problems that grips the gypsy community in Hungary and many times brings them to the brink of desparation so bad that they are willing to kill. And this statement also applies to Hungarians in sometimes. Desperate people who has nothing to lose will do desparate things.
But, instead of collectively blaming one group or another that Jobbik or SZDSZ likes to do I suggest we need an honest dialog and need an action plan to deal with the problem instead of putting our heads in the sand and pointing fingers to take the attention away from the desperate state of the Hungarian economy that we can all thank for the illegitimate Hungarian government. Hungary needs new elections now!
damn, whatsup with all the nationalist b.s.?
discrimination and hate crimes ARE different than “standard” murder/crime. thankfully so.
most decent progressive folks can recognize this. unless of course they are under some nationalist cloud that says they must react negatively any time “their” nation is being “tarnished”.
nations-states and nationalism are so last century folks. get over it.
we should all be upset when a human being is targeted for traits they have no say in possessing or not. because, one day we may be the targets.
martin:
“hate crimes ARE different than “standard” murder/crime. thankfully so.”
What makes you think that? Are you insane or just another brainwashed PC puppet?
People killed for money, or any other reason, are equally dead. Gypsies killing each other will be reported as “hate crime” in the liberal media, without any evidence. Also it will go on record as “violence against gypsies”. Works well for the no-good-for-nothing gypsy “leaders” and their self-promoting agenda: making things worse.
While it is totally legitimate to take into account the “intent” of a criminal when deciding their fate, all this back and forth about violent crimes driven by racism, etc, is essentially non-serious, because the people who want additional penalties for “hate” crimes usually still want the perpetrators punished less then the people who are against such legislation. In the US this is certainly the case. Just consider the story of James Byrd, Jr., a black man murdered in Texas by a bunch of asshole racist rednecks back when G.W. Bush was governor. Lots of people gave Bush hell at the time because he said he wasn’t in favor of hate crimes legislation. But in the end the asshole racist rednecks ended up getting the death penalty, which most/all of the people harshing on Bush were *against.* I reckon it’s the same here – the liberals who say they are for “hate crime” legislation are on balance probably more squeamish about locking people up and throwing away the key than folks on the right. For me, it all seems like a bit of a distraction, given that most criminals of all varieties here go free anyway. You gotta walk before you can run.
Good point Erik, internal hate crime prosecution is generally nowadays another sub-industry of the legal profession whereby they make a lot of money from clients or the defence but generally don’t actually help the end results, except providing lots of extra legislation to wade through.
But that’s not to say that political correctness is a bad thing. Any well mannered and considerate person should be PC by default, especially if they believe that any single person should be taken on their merits rather than their defaults. The reason the PC debate pisses me off here is that it’s not about “PC gone mad”, as it is in many other countries, but rather just “PC” on it’s own. Many people here refuse to be PC in any way. Which just means they are just simply rude and inconsiderate. PC language doesn’t have to mean mollycoddling the other parties in a dialogue just paying them the minimum of respect.
@martin. You forget that only some people are decent. I won’t use the word progressive because that implies that there is something different about having basic respect for others. There will always be dodgy scumbags and nasty, spiteful people in this world.
General point: If the police weren’t so corrupt or incompetant we wouldn’t be having this debate about the causes of crime. We would know the causes and perpertrators of all these high profile cases (and probably a darn sight more at that) or at least feel that a semi-competant investigation was happening. We would have proper profiling and reporting of crime figures. We would have proper scrutiny of police protocol and investigation of criminal activity. I don’t care if it’s because of ‘institutional racism’ or some weird-assed conspiracy by Jews to take over the world (the European front would obviously be starting with Hungary obviously) or any of the myriad of possible reasons one hears or reads, it all very could be and probably is knowing how bizarre a world we live in. But doesn’t it really just fundamentally come down to the simple fact that the police are shite at doing their job properly. That’s what people should be talking about in this country. Police incompetance and corruption yet again.
Dr Ki, Agreed on the debate over PC.
Someone else down there pointed out the crimes by Gypsies against Hungarians. I don’t think most people realize how bad it is for people who live in this country with these Gypsies. The Gypsies kill their children, their old people and rob anyone walking down the road. I’ve seen videos of Gypsies yelling that they will eradicate the Hungarians, that they will eventually overpopulate and take everyone out. They do not believe in education but are made to attend school, they fall behind and every bit of violence in the schools is ALL Gypsy. They beat up the teacher, they steal from their classmates. They have tons of kids (that they do not take care of) without the means of supporting them just to receive money from the government. One of the bigger stories recently that involved the “Old Hungarians” statement that is the bases of the US seeking to give asylum all started with a family of Gypsies invading someones home, beating them up and forcing them out. The victim family went to the police and the police told them they should move because the Gypsy family “means it” when they said they would beat them again. This family called the Old Hungarian (so called skinheads) for help. The police DID however show up to protect the Gypsy family.
A teacher and his two kids were driving through a Gypsy town and a girl ran out in front of his car and he hit her. Horrified he jumped out to check on her and a mob of Gypsies ran after him and beat him to death in front of his children. (By the way, the girl that was hit was fine). Now everyone says if you hit one, do NOT stop.
For God’s sake, before we even think about offering this group asylum into our country we need to do a real investigation into this matter. You have no idea the crime you will be bringing into our already crime-stressed home. Please-call whoever you can and have this looked into from both sides. I am an avid Human Rights advocate and volunteer on all sorts of actions but I know enough about this that I am scared of this coming to my children. I don’t want them murdered by some kid just to get their MP3 player. (actual story, and I have seen videos of this kid on Youtube bragging and saying that he will grow up and kill many Hungarians).
panzermench,
You’re right. Gypsies hate Hungarians, and they are busy robbing, beating and killing. It will be interesting to watch (from far away) when they finally become the majority here. The parasites will kill the host. What then?
@Godot/Visitor, Tünde, *mensch: Have any of you people actually read 1984 and understand it? It doesn’t support your world view/s you arseless idiots. Read the thing.
“…he was advocating freedom of speech, freedom of the Press, freedom of assembly, freedom of thought, he was crying hysterically that the revolution had been betrayed — and all this in rapid polysyllabic speech which was a sort of parody of the habitual style of the orators of the Party, and even contained Newspeak words: more Newspeak words, indeed, than any Party member would normally use in real life.”
Since you clearly don’t understand that bit, here it is in Hungarian for you (not that this will help you lot any):
“…szólásszabadságot, sajtószabadságot, gyülekezési szabadságot és gondolatszabadságot követelt, s hisztérikusan kiáltozta, hogy elárulták a forradalmat — s mindezt gyors, szaggatott beszédstílusban, amely egyfajta paródiája volt a pártszónokok stílusának, sőt még újbeszél szavakat is tartalmazott: feltétlenül több újbeszél szót, mint amennyit egy párttag használni szokott a mindennapi életben.”
Vandorlo- you knob head–these people understand far more about the real world than you ever will,sat behind your computer screen.
Stop attacking patriots and do something useful for a change.j
@patriots: What has patriotism got to do with this? Confused like the rest of them. Or Tünde’s nationalism. She can’t decide if it is linguistically, culturally, historically, recidivistically, diasporic,… based – though she claims it is genetically and has yet to prove anything in relation to that (any more on your theory about alcoholism and genetics?). Mainly the thing all your inarticulated and inarticulate theories share is a kind of post-colonial nationalism.
So, patriotic how. More of your pre-canned newspeak and doublethink from the new 11th version of the dictionary?
How long are you lot going to allow us to continue to commit the crime of ‘ownlife’?
“There was a word for it in Newspeak: ownlife, it was called, meaning individualism and eccentricity.” (Volt rá egy szó az újbeszélben: sajátélet-nek nevezték, s individualizmust, különcködést jelentett.)
n.b. “…sat behind your computer screen…” I’m not actually in the machine, you mean ‘sat in front of’.
Vandorlo
Thank you for correcting my English,you are very good at doing that–makes your ego swell ?
Now if only you could take your head out of the dark place and put yourself into the situation of a real Hungarian ,you might begin to understand the anger and disappointment of a nation and its pride.
Feel free to correct any grammatical mistakes but never try to correct a persons inner belief !
peace .
Now back to topic–can we all agree, as my local police force even says,that we do have a real gypsy crime problem ? can we now talk about how to solve this once we accept reality of situation ?
@Fabian: Great new name Ricsi, though I never realized you considered yourself a socialist – you’re certainly far from being an intellectual, too.
“..if only you could take your head out of the dark place and put yourself into the situation of a real Hungarian” But are you a real Hungarian? You can’t even speak the language and it looks like that situation isn’t going to improve any time soon is it? If there were a nationality test, you would fail and I would probably pass. Hope your command of history and the constitution are better.
“…but never try to correct a persons inner belief !” You have a weird way of writing. Why do you always leave spaces before question and exclamation marks? Anyway, I’m not forcing you or trying to change your ‘inner beliefs’ I merely trying to ground them in reality.
By the way, did you read the Economist piece (just mentioning that is brought to bring out the dregs of Visitor and Tünde) on the Roma in Czech Republic? No, didn’t think so. Anyway, right at the end there was a bit of a side-swipe at Hungary: “Roma are suffering in many other countries in the region. Hungary has witnessed a spate of especially nasty murders. But the rich, well-governed Czech Republic, which holds the European Union’s rotating presidency, can surely do better.” They can do better, but Hungary can’t be expected to? Czech’s are ‘well-governed’ but Hungarians aren’t? Bit low, I thought. ref: http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13579124
n.b. I wasn’t correcting your English, rather your reasoning.
Vandorlo
“Brought to bring out ” ? And you criticise my English , like I said,two can play this game,but why bother ?
you are out of your league but do not realise it yet-good night, szebb jövőt.
vandorlo
Fair comment–meeting ?????
@Ricsi: Read 1984. It is a great book.
“All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals.” (Minden vadság szabadon kitörhetett belőlük — az Állam ellenségei, a külföldiek, árulók, szabotőrök, gondolatbűnözők ellen.)
“It is absolutely necessary to their structure that there should be no contact with foreigners, except, to a limited extent, with war prisoners and coloured slaves.” (Felépítésük feltétlenül szükségessé teszi, hogy külföldiekkel ne történjék érintkezés, kivéve — s csak megszabott mértékig — a hadifoglyokat és a színes rabszolgákat.)
“If he were allowed contact with foreigners he would discover that they are creatures similar to himself and that most of what he has been told about them is lies.” (Ha külföldiekkel érintkezhetne, rájöhetne, hogy azok is hozzá hasonló teremtmények, s hogy a legtöbb dolog, amit róluk hallott, hazugság.)
Vandorlo,
You keep bringing up 1984, did you even read the book or only some kind of “Selected Quotes for the Mentally Challenged”?
If you read the whole thing, try again, this time with adult supervision. You apparently didn’t get the message.
Why don’t you pick a Hungarian name that fits you, like “Fajankó”.
@Godot: “You apparently didn’t get the message.” What do you think the message is? The versions pushed by Tünde, Visitor, Stan… all concentrate on just the linguistic aspect of PC. This part of the book is what psychologists/linguists know as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Stated basically, it is the idea that language largely determines thought. Unfortunately, this theory has not been supported by empirical evidence (see “Language and Spatial Frames of Reference in Mind and Brain” for starters http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VH9-46C0C8W-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1732fca4eac5ec0a0f622ef2afd6a7b4 )
And which department do you work for, Minipax?
Godot: ‘Rien a faire’
Me: ‘Je commence a le croire’
vandorlo
Sorry you still have me mistaken,though you are close. LOL
Don’t worry,we have bigger fish to fry now.
@S /”it’s pretty dumb of the Times to talk of 7 murders like it’s extraordinary” Dumb is not the word that comes to my mind… &, look who are talking! How many HUNDRED THOUSAND people have these crooked, lying bastards killed last year and every year for the past several years? How many MILLION lives have they ruined? Over a million refugees from Iraq alone languishing in hell holes everywhere. Do these scumbags really have the nerve to bitch about 7 ‘Roma’ (isn’t that a tomato?) killed last year in internal Gypsy gang warfare and try to pin it on Magyars? What kind of arrogant, criminally insane trash are we dealing with here anyway? (The actual number BTW is not 7 but 15 murders committed without exception by other Gypsies. 80% of the prison population in Hungary is guess what tribe.)
@Roamer /”Hungarians were murdered by gypsies and how interestingly this fact skipped the attention of the New York Times, etc.” &, the BBC never mentions that Eva Rhodes whose body was just found was butchered by a Gypsy as well… It’s not just the NYT, BBC, Time, etc. misled by their “SZDSZ buddies” believe me. It’s the Allies bombing Hungary again. And, we must retaliate. If we tolerate this open season on us like a bunch of cowering sheep then, well, we just admit that we *are* fair game. The bastards may be rich as Creases and powerful as hell but look how successfully the Scientologists dealt with similar sleazeball-whore media hacks and even the IRS! Sue them *personally* in Spanish courts is another idea. In the mean time let’s make sure every Hungarian Gyp knows where to find Nadler, Kulish, Thörpe et al. so they can thank their champions in person
@Roamer: “Remember the brutally murdered and raped girl in Kiskunlachaza?” But it turns out that despite the accusations and ethinic tensions this caused, the murderer appears to have been non-Roma, doesn’t it? http://barikad.hu/node/31463
(I use this ‘news’ source merely to try to see off accusations of media bias by those whose eyes are only open to such sources)
guys, let’s all go for a brewski and make bets on how long the NYT can/will survive. trust me, it would be more productive than what i’ve just read here.