March 19th, 2009

Pop Quiz: Which CEU Professor is an Unapologetically Illiberal Hater of Free Speech?

no-free-speech-for-you.jpg

In the year or so since this site last checked in with Central European University, the Budapest-based institution of higher learning has appointed a new president and rector, John Shattuck, who will take office in August. The landing of Shattuck can be rightly seen as a masterstroke by CEU’s trustees and founder / chief benefactor George Soros, as he brings to the job a seemingly perfect résumé, which ranges from diplomacy to academia to a stint as national staff counsel of the American Civil Liberties Union when the advocacy group made world headlines for its controversial defense of the free speech rights of neo-Nazis who wanted to through the predominately Jewish Chicago suburb of Skokie. During his first visit to campus after accepting the post, Shattuck emphasized his “tremendous admiration” for CEU’s “mission,”, which, according to the university’s website, includes becoming a “change maker in the region and beyond, with a special focus on contemporary challenges of open society, and democratization.”

But before Shattuck gets to work enhancing CEU’s role as a “change maker” promoting the goals of an open society in the world outside of the university’s walls, he may need to face certain related challenges closer to home. Last week, we had an interesting email exchange with a member of CEU’s faculty, who wrote in to complain about the freedom with which bigoted, far-right-types were able to leave comments on Pestiside’s sister site Politics.hu. We wrote back with a note that summarized our liberal policy on comments – which probably mirrors that of the Skokie-era ACLU – and bemoaned the fact that it always seemed to be liberals writing in and demanding we clamp down on “offensive” speech on our network. We promptly received a reply containing the following (at least for us) hair-raising clarification:

I am actually not a liberal. If I was a liberal I would probably believe in free speech. And I don’t.

Even leaving aside the tricky meaning of “liberal” – Americans usually think left, Europeans right – it doesn’t take a Ph.D. in hermeneutics to get the idea that this person has a rather different idea of the “challenge of open society” than a nice American liberal like John Shattuck.

Being nice liberals ourselves, we’re not going to publish the name of this person, no matter how richly they deserve it. Instead, we’re going to let you do it! Note, however, that unlike most nice liberals, we’re going to be strict in our grading. If no one from CEU has the nerve to out this free-speech-hating galoot – or if such anti-liberal views are so widespread among the faculty it is difficult even to guess – we’re going to give all of CEU an “F” on this exercise, and then inform the new rector that, as far as we are concerned, he’s already on probation. Class dismissed.

And here is what people were saying back before we forced readers to use Facebook to comment. Weren't those the days?
  1. ceu student says:

    Who is this dithering dothead? Give us his/her name, so we may storm the Faculty Tower!

  2. Marianna says:

    Far be it for me to disagree with John Shattuck, but frankly I do
    not think hate speech is free speech in the list. When speech is
    used to intimidate, humiliate, and incite violence against others,
    that is not “free.” It’s purpose is to impinge on the freedom of
    others.

    And since you do not publish the context of the letter you
    received, I can only assume the author the letter you mention
    believes the same.

    The racism in this country is disgusting and is a symptom of
    how sick Hungary has become. The fact that hate speech is
    condoned nationwide takes it back decades, and it is no wonder
    that people make little distinction between Hungary and the
    Balkans, which Hungarians so disdain. There is no difference.

    The amount of hate speech left in the comments of this site is
    also sickening. That the editors of this site let it continue even
    while engaging leads me to question your motivations, and not
    for the first time.

    A society that seeks to take the rights away from others is not
    “open.”

  3. Erik says:

    @Marianna: Just curious – would you consider use of the phrases “white heterosexual male” or “right-wing Christian” in a pejorative context as hate speech that should be punished by law?

  4. Stan says:

    Marianna,
    Apparently you are not very familiar with Hungary. The only freedom we have left is the freedom of speech. We are not violent, on the contrary, we are infinitely patient. Racial and ethnic tensions are created by our dysfunctional government and corrupt “minority leaders” in order to divide the nation and label everyone who’s tired of them as “racist” and “ultra-right” and “nazi” and so on. There’s no real race issue here, people are just frustrated with not having any legal ways to get rid of the current ruling class, that’s all. Gyurcsany doesn’t have the decency to step down and Hungarians are not even allowed in this rotten police state to protest. Now you want to take our free speech too? Don’t push it…

  5. C'est moi says:

    Not hate speech, just mindless drivel:

    Jews are entitled to do anything these days – 3/7/09

    So much for truth in left-liberal pro-Jew-gypsy reproting. 3/7/09

    People are getting sick of being pushed around by Jewish pressure groups. 2/27/09

    “what would Hungary be without Jews?”… Happy.2/27/09

    It’s too late for the USA, they are stuck with the “melting pot”, but even there you can’t help but notice the natural preference of most people to live with their own kind. 11/8/09

    I reserve the right to live in a white community. & We don’t need Asian and African immigrants in Hungary or anywhere in Europe. If you like them so much, pack up and move to their homeland. 11/9/08

    Jews are getting away with mass murder in the Middle-East.They are getting away with child abuse, the bloody, barbaric mutilation ritual performed on babies. Is it your silly “covenant with G-d” thing? Get into the 21st. century already, cut the “chosen people” crap, and get on with the program. A lot of Hungarian people are working hard, Jews didn’t invent that. Ganging up on the locals and cheating them out of their hard-earned money sounds more like a Jewish tradition. 2/27/09

    I strongly believe that Islam is not a real threat, as long as we treat them with respect, leave them alone, and under no circumstances allow them to immigrate in large numbers to Europe and the USA. That’s the recipe. Separate but equal. 2/19/09

    keep the races, religions and cultures separate as much as possible, there’s not one good reason to force the mixing of the unmixable.

    If the British Isles would sink into the ocean today, I sure wouldn’t miss it. I’d call it justice. 3/9/09

    You can’t go wrong by blaming (some of) the Jews. There must be a reason why they have never been popular. I blame the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Warburgs, the Bank of England, The Federal Reserve, the IMF, etc.
    Recessions don’t just happen, they are carefully planned, just like world wars. New World Order is here already. We (non-Jews) are doomed. 3/10/09

  6. Gulliver says:

    Erik,
    It would be interesting and educational to read the e-mail exchange, even without the name.

  7. Odin's lost eye says:

    C’est moi I think you keyboard has developed a dose of diarrhoea.

  8. A tulajdonságok nélküli ember says:

    Illinois Nazis? I hate those guys!

  9. justpassinby says:

    Odin’s whatever – ru d same tart dat starts al’ye yawny posts te Spekrum wiv ‘Prof’ – pl. ‘The kind professor who is our hostesses for this Blog…’ bagoly mate

  10. Marianna says:

    Erik, no I wouldn’t consider those terms hate speech, but this is
    not about using politically correct terms.

    Stan, I disagree on two counts. It IS a race issue. If more than
    60% of Hungarians, for example, think negatively of gypsies,
    that is a race issue. If you have people spray painting swastikas,
    that is a race issue. If you have people violently targeting
    gypsies (and gypsies targeting non-gypsies), that is a race
    issue. Rhetoric fans those flames and does nothing to bring
    about resolution.

    As for violence, certainly Hungarians are violent. Why, just read
    the last few articles here. Firebomb a house and shoot a father
    and son while they are fleeing for their life? Noooo, that’s not
    violent, that’s totally normal. And please do not get me started
    on the other senseless bullshit that goes on every national
    holiday.

    Last, about this so-called police violence. This is simply naive; if
    you think the kinds of police involvement I’ve seen in the past 4
    + years in Budapest is violent, well, you really need to get out
    more. These protesters wouldn’t last 10 minutes with their
    stunts in the US, let alone other parts of the world. Police
    violence? Try Zimbabwe. Try Cuba. Try North Korea. Try Iran.
    Try Saudi Arabia.

    Sound to me like this police violence crap is more typical
    Hungarian mentality BS. They’re damned for not doing more,
    and they’re damned when they do do something.

    It’s really sad to watch this country tear itself apart.

  11. C'est moi says:

    Odin’s lost eye-
    Sorry, I thought everyone would have recognized our resident genius’s, who I only will refer to by his stated IQ…140, work over the past several months.

    There is a pattern there but I can’t quite make out what it is.

  12. another ceu student says:

    Lol, I can think of at least 3 of four professors who would indulge in such a debate. Was it I.R. (R.I. for Hungarians)? Anyway, I like you blog, but try not to be such a bigot … Think: if the rector values freedom of speech, he would also defend the freedom of speech of a faculty member who says he doesn’t believe in freedom of speech (and btw, not believing is quite not the same as opposing). Unless freedom of speech is confined to those who believe in freedom of speech. But that would mean that the far-right commentators are also not entitled to it, which is precisely the argument of the anonymous professor, isn’t it? So … it seems to me you’re contradicting yourself.
    Best, L.

  13. szusi says:

    this must be csaba lászló. or if not, he wouldn’t
    dare to agree. ;)

  14. Stan says:

    @C’est moi,
    I understand that you’re a devoted fan, but memorizing (or even worse – collecting) quotes from as far back as last year, well that’s obsession.
    Get help, son, you’re losing it.

    @Marianna,
    Sorry, I overestimated you. Try again when you have an original thought. Anti-Hungarian propaganda and tired old cliches just won’t do it.

    @PopQuiz,
    Mária M. Kovács? or maybe Lajcsi Bokros? Who is it?

  15. Erik says:

    @another ceu student: No one who genuinely believes in free speech would question the right of someone to say they don’t believe it in. That’s obvious. The question is why an institution that would seem to deeply value free speech would employ people who don’t. The trustees of CEU and George Soros no doubt believe people have the right to say that God created the earth 6,000 years ago. But it doesn’t mean CEU needs to have rabid creationist on the faculty.

    @Marianna: Let me be blunt. If you think it’s okay to criminalize speech aimed at some ethno-racial-confessional groups (e.g. Roma, Jews) and protect the same language if used against other similarly-identifiable groups you hold in less regard (e.g. Hungarian Christians) you are an enemy of the open society, pure and simple.

  16. C'est moi says:

    What’s the matter 160, seeing your one track mind out in the sunlight a bit too much to bare? You can fool some of the people around here but not me.

  17. Marianna says:

    Stan, calling it as I see it. Not sure what propaganda and cliche
    you are talking about, but then again you have this argument on
    a daily basis so perhaps it sounds that way to you.

    Erik, I misunderstood your question. I thought you asked
    whether ” “white heterosexual male” or “right-wing Christian”
    WERE pejorative.

    Yes, I would consider that hate speech if someone were actually
    advocating stripping them of rights or trying to incite violence
    against them, for example yelling in a loud speaker to kill all
    white guys.

    I do not think a term on its own is hate speech per se.
    Sometimes it is, sometimes it is just ignorant use in
    conversation. I am against hiding behind the skirts of free
    speech to actively and publicly intimidate an oppress. Yes, I
    think burning a cross in someone’s yard or hanging a noose
    from their tree is hate speech, not to mention trespass and
    destruction of property. And yes, I also think much of what I
    read in the comments here is equally hateful.

    Do I think comments left on an Internet site should be
    punishable by law? That depends, and it is interesting to see
    case law and precedents set around the world on this issue. My
    personal view is that it is up to the moderator (you) to set the
    tone for the site, which you do. I am just disappointed that
    you’ve let the site get the best of you, with the same group of
    people spouting their same tired propaganda and cliches (back
    at you, Stan), rather than fostering open minded dialogue. Those
    kinds of comments are regularly removed from sites like
    craigslist, or example, and the users suspended and/or banned.
    That strikes me as more responsible from a site management
    point of view than trying to egg these people on. When a line is
    crossed, however, such as someone making a personal threat or
    using comments to actually organize some kind of violent event
    – a hate crime if you will – then yes, that is something the law
    should be involved in.

  18. IQ101 says:

    @Stan – “Marianna, Sorry I overestimated you”. You overestimated the 160 too.

  19. Marianna says:

    Clarification: I am against hiding behind the skirts of free
    speech to actively and publicly intimidate an oppress.

    Meant: Sometimes it is hiding behind the skirts of free speech to actively and publicly intimidate and oppress.

  20. Tünde says:

    Erik I will improve your statistics on complaints on things other than what people say is hate speech. I find offensive the cyber attacks by one, two or a group of people on Hungary and Hungarians using different nicks. Look at the poster(s)on the Stan IQ thing. Or writing in the names of others. Why is it that Pesticide is still incapable of having posters register like every other blog in the world? Not that this would solve the problem, but it could help. Also offensive is the completely, one-sided, -mistakenly called liberal- tabloid, portrayal of Hungary as some sort of joke, and making jokes out of people’s misfortunes (the prison fate for the trucker caught in Austria, the incident with castration in Serbia). Any such stories about various ethnic, racial or religious minority groups would bring many more letters. Also I find offensive Sexyside, and before I am called a prude or worse, three men (from all sides of the political spectrum) have expressed similar views.

    I agree it is a joke that the above complaint comes from the CEU. I do think that the site could do with a moderator (if for nothing else the exposure of people’s identities is a definite breach of privacy, which Pesticide did nothing to prevent), although not in the sense that the unknown prof, (whoever it is, I seriously doubt it is Csaba László suszi) would like. Unlike Marianna (who seems to think that Pesticide is really a front for some neo-nazi group!) I do not question Erik’s motivation. Although tabloid journalism is ideological (Adorno, Orwell), I am pretty sure that the site operators are not deeply immersed in mass media theory, and Pesticide seems to be mostly the English version of subba.hu.

    Re: “the tricky meaning of liberal. Americans think left and Europeans right.” I think that comment alone requires a CEU course in history, politics and philosophy for Pesticide staff.

  21. Marianna says:

    Tunde, on the contrary, I do not think it is a front for a neo nazi
    group at all. I simply think that it is naive (the above article being
    one example) and irresponsible (by doing little to curb the
    offensive comments). Some of the commenters here certainly have
    NN opinions though. I don’t know Erik nor do I know him well
    enough to know what is motivation is. Some would argue that by
    doing nothing, you are implicitly accepting that something is OK,
    hence my *questioning* of his motivation.

  22. IQ101 says:

    @Erik “I think that comment alone requires a CEU course in history, politics and philosophy for Pesticide staff”.
    Not if Tundu’s is the one teaching it. I’d stop reading Pestiside if you guys started sounding like Tunde.
    On the other hand, if I taught it……….

  23. Erik says:

    @Tünde: And I think the fact that you can’t spell the name of this website correctly – it’s pesti-SIDE, not pesti-CIDE – suggests maybe you require a course in basic reading and writing. (Just kidding.) As for the moderation issue, it’s a tough one. We are working on a system to allow for an integrated registration system that goes across the sites, but it’s a bitch. Meanwhile, I simply don’t want to have us/me sitting by and reading every comment from unregistered people to see that they pass muster. But we’ll maybe give that a try as well. As for “Sexyside,” I’m sure most people would find it revolting – just like most people on earth would find the idea of two men kissing revolting. Different tastes!

    @Marianna: I think you are still perhaps misunderstanding the point of the above article, and my own beliefs. I don’t think anyone here thinks free speech includes burning crosses on someone’s lawn, or having rallies where people shout “everyone get a rope and let’s go lynch some Jews!” through bullhorns. These sorts of things are illegal under extremely well-settled law and custom relating to destruction of private property and trespass, and incitement. The question is whether you think someone should be allowed to say, or publish, something like “I hate the Roma” or “right-wing white Christians are ruining society” or “the Danes are utter douches” – and whether any specific group gets special legal protection from such smears/bitching. It’s not so complicated, and the fact that you can’t say “yes” or “no” suggests you are actually more ambivalent about these issues than you think. Which, by the way, is a good thing.

  24. IQ100 says:

    @Tunde – If you find Pestiside, Sexiside and the registration policy(or lack of) so offensive, why are you still here criticizing everything & everyone. I find that offensive. Intelligent people don’t hang around a website if they think it is idiotic.
    ps. My IQ dropped one point from my previous post by checking out Sexiside.

  25. Vándorló says:

    @Erik: Just some unhelpful suggestions of solutions you have probably already thought of and ruled out. For authentication and authorization why not outsource this to solutions like OpenID – it’s been built into OpenType since MT4? Or the standard LDAP configuration (http://www.movabletype.org/documentation/enterprise/install.html )?
    For outsourcing the whole comment stream management there’s even Google’s OpenSocial container you can plug in easily with FriendConnect – the obvious disadvantage being loss of loyalty and less user lock-in.
    I think so far there is a pretty much workable if uncomfortable balance in what goes on here anyway. The community aspect of this seems to be fairly robust and ‘self-policing’, to the point where you have managed to upset pretty much everyone. Well done!!

  26. Stan says:

    C’est moi:
    “seeing your one track mind out in the sunlight a bit too much to bare?”

    The text you quoted from my previous posts were not intended for eternity, but they are still valid, powerful and enlightening. Apparently no one can argue with them, so they must be true.
    You have my permission to print any or all of them on your t-shirt, bumper sticker etc. Show people that you have an opinion even if you don’t.

  27. IQ137 says:

    I apologise for suddenly droping the tone of the conversation by 50 IQ points, but I have another type of question to address. Namely, why the hell Pestiside hates CEU so much? Over the years since I discovered and avidly read it (as opposed to Tünde, precisely because it mocks Hungary and the rest of the world, thus giving me the chance to escape the nauseating Political Correctness around me,and so much the better if the escape happens during the working hours), it always struck me as having a rather disproportionately negative attitude towards CEU. As many of the posters, I did pass some time there (serving an MA and a PhD sentence). And while I don’t say it was the best of the worlds, I think we all had a good chance to choose from CEU whatever we pleased, as in any university environment, I guess. While I hated plenty of teachers, policies and colleagues,overall I still found it as a great experience. So I do not understand Pestiside’s continuous bickering about it. What happened, did you guys failed some exams? Did you not get the distinction? Or simply this is a strategic move to ‘sell’ your Pestiside stuff, given that plenty of readers are CEU students/alumni?

  28. anon600ad says:

    Free speech is one of the cornerstones of open society. Sadly though, it is often misused or taken advantage of. Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s a good idea to start legislating what people can or can’t say. I agree that a lot of offensive things get said in public generally, and on this site specifically; things that would really have been much better left unsaid. Having said that, I also think that rather than getting all hurt and indignant, it is really up to all of us to get over ourselves a bit and stop being so damn precious…or as a friend of mine says “Take a teaspoon of cement and harden the fuck up.” (that goes for Hungarians and non-Hungarians alike.)
    I think that most of the time people are prosecuted for ‘hate speech’ or ‘racial vilification’ it is all a bit oversensitive and I worry that we risk ‘crying wolf’ too often. At the point where ‘free speech’ is used to incite violence or repression, however, things become more tricky, and this is where we need to be careful in writing and applying laws. I don’t think this site should be regulated beyond the point of preserving the relative level of anonymity that (in my opinion) helps to enable free speech.
    I will say though…that this means the same for both ‘sides’ of the spectrum. If it is ok and appropriate to say “Jews are evil” or that “Gypsies are all uneducated violent thugs” then it must also be ok to say “Hungarians are racist and close-minded” or that “Hungary should act like a grown up country.”
    A lot of this kind of language is baiting anyway, and reacting just validates the attention seeking behaviour.
    I have been offended by some people’s comments here at times, but then, it is my choice to come here in the first place, so the responsibility should ultimately be mine. In other words, if you don’t like the decor, move to a new apartment.

  29. anon600ad says:

    On police violence. I’m kind of in two minds about this. I agree that the Hungarian police are a long way from being as bad as some other countries.I don’t think they are a rampaging band of maniacs, but then they sure don’t inspire me with a whole lot of confidence in their commitment to ‘protect and serve’.
    I also know that the training period is being cut this year by a month and a half, which although doesn’t sound like much, is actually a really important period where the students go through a lot of personal development. It has also been said that the next class might graduate in December rather than June next year, cutting six months off their training. I know the government is desperate to get more police on the streets, but I don’t think this is a great idea at all. To me, it’s a bit like being born 2 and a half months early…except that the ‘babies’ are given guns.
    The Hungarian police are undertrained and undersupported (in terms of emotional training and ongoing well-being) which leads to instability and well, a kind of moral pragmatism. I have held a kind of ongoing informal survey of students, asking them among other things, why they joined the PD. Most of the time they said something like “It’s guaranteed employment for two years with early retirement if I stay on.” or “I want to do cool stuff.” (ie breaking down doors and blowing shit up), “I don’t know, this was just the only training I could get into.” …or my personal favourite “because the female police look hot.”
    The police are not the institution that a society should look to for leadership. Policing forces in general make excellent servants but terrible masters. I certainly don’t think ‘free speech’ is a law and order issue. It is essential that the public can criticise their government and its associated institutions. If the police have the power to repress language, it makes them very open to misuse by governments…and then where would Hungary be, but about 50 years in the past?

  30. Erik says:

    @IQ137: No, for sure no particular gripe against CEU, though I will readily admit to considering anything that might be classified as “critical theory” or “gender studies” to be a laughable scam, and to harboring deep skepticism of the modern higher educational establishment as a whole… essentially I just consider universities to be one of many industries that have gotten used to operating without appropriate oversight – sort of like financial engineering was until the crisis, except more boring than dangerous. Also, CEU is cool because if there is money being wasted on hokey humanities nonsense it’s a billionaire’s money being wasted, rather than some poor schulb working the night shift to pay his taxes.

  31. Bacsi says:

    Oh Dear, Oh Dear…

    I’m already seeing the ‘Lone Gunman’ headlines on this one?

  32. Ferenc says:

    If you hate free speech, or just hate comments from Stan, you can do what I do: use Firefox, install Greasemonkey, and install my Stan-remover user script http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/44793 . You can edit it to change the list of users (or words) you want to disappear.

  33. billboy says:

    I agree completely that all speech should be free.
    “Sticks and stone may brake my bones…” Speech alone can’t actually hurt anyone.

    This is why Hitler and Stalin were totally innocent, as they never personally killed anyone themselves… all they did was talk. How can that be a crime?

  34. Vándorló says:

    @Ferenc: Great idea and has the added advantage of removing anyone who even mentions Stan, too. Maybe when The All Hungary Media Group get their comment system sorted they can add this as part of the standard customisable page filters each user can set. From then on we can all remain peacefully oblivious to each other. Don’t want all that cross mixing of ideas and customs, best to keep us all segregated and boxed off. I think this is the kind of apartheid that would make Tünde happy if no-one else.

  35. Viking says:

    billboy: “This is why Hitler and Stalin were totally innocent, as they never personally killed anyone themselves… all they did was talk. How can that be a crime?”

    On 19 August 2003, at the tribunal in Arusha, life sentences were requested for Ferdinand Nahimana, and Jean Bosco Barayagwiza, persons in charge for the Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines, as well as Hassan Ngeze, director and editor of the Kangur newspaper. They are charged with genocide, incitement to genocide, and crimes against humanity, before and during the period of the genocides of 1994. On 3 December 2003, the court found all three defendants guilty and sentenced Nahimana and Ngeze to life imprisonment and Barayagwiza to imprisonment for 35 years. The case is currently on appeal.

    As a “Free Speech” supporter I assume you support their appeal on grounds it cannot be criminal to do “incitement to genocide”.

  36. Erik says:

    @Viking: I believe “billyboy” was being sarcastic. But it is useful to ponder his point, because it vividly illustrates the intellectual depravity of the contemporary anti-free speech left. Hitler or Stalin were not exercising speech when they ordered the death of millions; they were pulling the levers of state power. Pathetic.

    Meanwhile, speaking of pathetic, I see that the “big question” here – identifying the faculty lounge fascist at CEU who hates free dome of expression – remains unanswered. Why am I not shocked by this?

  37. Stan says:

    Erik: “Why am I not shocked by this?”

    Probably because you didn’t give us much info to begin with.

    As for free speech, I think there’s a solution: every time you put in your two cents worth, it will be deducted from your bank account. You can still speak, but it’s no longer free. The money collected will be donated to the Gyurcsany Ference Oratory School.

  38. Msys says:

    What I find amusing is that Pestisde has no problem with hate speech on its website, yet it uses a comment from a CEU professor to wage war against CEU (if they are such believers in free speech, shouldn’t they have just let the comment and the person be?) Clearly, this is nothing but a way to attarct more attention to the website. What bothers me though is that this little pop quiz game may turn into an isntrument of incirmination of CEU professors who have nothing to do with the whole thing. So I would like to appeal to the CEU community: please stop playing by pestiside rules, and stop the guessing game. I love the free speech debate, but please leave personalities out of it — otherwise it just turns into an unethical witch-hunting!

  39. Stan says:

    Free speech has two sides: the one who speaks and the one who listens. Both parties have some responsibilities. If I say “jump” and you jump without thinking, than it’s your problem. If the police tell you to jump, then it’s their responsibility, it’s no longer a free speech issue, it’s an abuse of power. Anonymous opinions posted on a not very highly visible internet discussion board, regardless of content are nothing but free speech. It’s very democratic, you can post your own opinion if you don’t like what others say, no one gets hurt, it’s words agains words.

  40. anon600ad says:

    It surprised me to see Eric making such an overt effort to guide the discussion back to the CEU academic. Not that I want to defend this person…to be honest, I don’t really care. So some academic in a Hungarian university is apparently a neo-fascist…so what? I’m sure he/she is not the only one…and I don’t really see many Hungarians (or anyone else in other countries for that matter) taking academics all that seriously anyway. I figured that the person involved in this was just some otherwise smart person who had spent too much time inhaling book binding glue fumes and wasn’t really worth paying too much attention to. For what it’s worth, CEU doesn’t even appear on the Jiao Tong 2008 university ratings anyway. The highest Hungarian uni is ELTE in the 303-401 group with the university of Szeged in the same group albeit several places lower.
    The debate about free speech in general is more interesting to me, and in that sense pestiside (generally) has exercised values that reflect such ideals. Of course it is opinionated, of course it has its own interests, such as it is with all media corporations. What sticks out for me here as being interesting though is that although not ‘repressive’ or threatening, Eric’s condescending effort to steer the conversation suggests (to me) an element of wishing to exert influence over what is said. Does that mean that speech on pestiside is actually not so free after all?

  41. Erik says:

    @anon600ad: You are reading too much into my “steering” of the conversation back to the question originally posed by the post. The truth (as Msys pointed out) is that I am engaged in a witch hunt, and just want to make sure that as we are having fun kicking ideas back and forth we don’t forget to sniff out the witch.

    But while Msys is correct about this, I don’t think he/she is being honest in saying that witch hunts are by definition “unethical.” If our CEU professor had written in saying “The Gárda is right – Gypsies are subhuman savages” I suspect Msys and others would be working overtime to figure out who this person was, and then to burn them at the stake, at least metaphorically.

    By the way, I always have a little chuckle whenever someone from the academic left (pejoratively) calls something a “witch hunt” or “McCarthyism,” given how no other corner of modern Western society follows the principals of Torquemada with such loving care.

    Get the witch!

  42. Marianna says:

    This has just gotten strange. Erik, you know who the person is and
    have decided out of some kind of ethic not to say. You want people
    to get worked up about someone’s opinion, that they personally
    sent to you. You want people to guess his or her identity, and
    storm the walls of CEU. Yet you refuse to publish the full context of
    the statement that was so hair-raising for you. Now I have to agree
    with Msys that you’ve just been playing us for the sake of traffic or
    comments.

    I’m also interested why you are so consistently opposed to CEU and
    wanting to point out that Soros is a billionaire. Whatever else the
    man may be, he is self-made and I cannot fault him for investing
    his fortune in projects that at least attempt to develop a more open
    and just world, nor can I fault him for his goal of giving all of his
    money away to such projects before he dies.

  43. Erik says:

    @Marianna: I think you need to read a little more closely before you write. About Soros, I said exactly the opposite of what you seem to think I said. (I said CEU was cool because if there was any money wasted, etc., it was Soros’s money rather than public money.) And for the last time, I don’t have anything in particular against the place, but against the increasingly illiberal trend in higher education as a whole. You don’t have to believe me, but don’t put words in my mouth.

    Meanwhile, as for continuing to play the game of who this person is, it’s just fun for me, that’s all. I think this person is an asshole, and I want to torture them a bit, while at the same provoking a bit of thinking about the issue of free speech among members of the CEU community.

    But in all seriousness, let me ask you this: what if the person had instead written me an email which said “The Gárda is right – Gypsies are subhuman savages”? What do you think the appropriate course of action would be? I’m not trying to trap you – I’m curious what you think.

  44. Vándorló says:

    @anon600ad: If you look at their (Jiao Tong 2008 university ratings) methodology for ‘Ranking Criteria and Weights’ you will see non of it is actually based on the quality of the education or teaching, but on the research achievements of the staff (http://www.arwu.org/rank2008/ARWU2008Methodology(EN).htm ).
    There has always been a debate about whether ‘those that can, do; those who can’t teach’ etc.. (J.B.Shaw’s overused quip). On the other side many real great inspiration teachers/speakers produced very mediocre students. Wittgenstein was by everyone’s accounts an astonishing lecturer, yet from his students we don’t have one decent example of his genius. Alternatively Kant was an appalling teacher, boring, uninspiring etc… yet amongst his student bore some top rank thinkers.
    There is no easy one-to-one relationship between lecturer quality or research prowess in educating and inspiring students. Like many here I’m more inclined to believe higher education is just an elaborate cesspit of over-pampered dossers working their way from one useless conference to the next at the tax payers expense. I prefer Ivan Illich’s observation in Deschooling Society that ‘we are all schooled, but we educate ourselves’. Hungary would do well to follow Bokros’s suggestion to reduce the number of bloated ‘educational establishments’ from 70+ to around 20. Who needs these losers?
    Anyway, my point is that this league table is clearly geared to research performance of postgraduates and PhD students rather than undergraduate basic level education – for that it is unfit for purpose.

  45. anon600ad says:

    Van: Even if we used your argument regarding Jiao Tong, it is still no less useful in the context of this discussion. What we are discussing here is not teaching quality, or number of student graduates or even the percentage of graduates finding employment. This discussion is about a particular academic at a specific university. My point remains the same. If as you say the Jiao Tong index is a measure of the relative success of the faculty of a university, then it only reinforces my point since CEU ranks so low, their staff are probably also not exactly the most desirable of intellects. Ok, so he/she might be an enthralling lecturer, but as you so rightly point out, that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans if they are just talking shit in an entertaining way. What worries me more is the idea that they might be perpetuating their attitudes by using their position to promote their own personal agenda. In that regard, I think it is important that if academics are going to make controversial statements, that they should also be held accountable. Apart from that, I’d say CE Who?

  46. Vándorló says:

    @anon600ad: Point(s) taken. Though the way it generally works is that because the top ranking universities have more money (richer alumni etc..) they can afford to attract teaching staff with high academic rank (using the indicators like where and how many papers they have published etc…). This is why American universities are ranked so highly, they can simply afford more of those people that bump the stats and it is on this basis that the problems of peer review in most scientific journals (particularly for woolly subjects) reinforces these biases. Obviously again the employment stats help to reinforce this. I was once on an interview panel that seriously offered a place to a guy with a Third Class degree from Oxford rather than someone with a First Class from a ‘red-brick’ university – I was the only one who thought this was appalling. And you see these cronies infest every space they then inhabit, there use to be a bunch of them here, before their (cretinously bad poet) ring-leader moved state-side to set up another alumni group there. It’s the masons, all over. Anyone joining a club like that needs to get a life.
    Talking of which I hear the PM’s wife (Klara) was thinking (in the process) of setting up an exclusive club for the cream of Hungarian society. What a better way to entrench the social and cultural divide even further.
    You are certainly right about the ‘CEU-who?’ , only people here think the farce is important – and they are such bores to listen too, all that internal politics stuff. But that’s academics for you.
    On the issue of the alleged ‘witch-hunt’ I would like to put in my 2 cents. I don’t know if the CEU is subject to the same over-reliance on oral exams (szóbeli vizsgák) that the rest of the educational apparatus here is, but if it is then I think any member of teaching staff that holds views which may result in students being pre-judged has no right to that level of privacy. I have seen and heard appalling abuses of power and status resulting from the examiners’ prejudgements of students (I certainly would object to anyone like Tünde being anywhere near any examination process). The choice is simple, these people can have their privacy if they remove themselves from the (oral) examination process, or the examination process changes to one that protects the anonymity of the examinee. Why should the examiners be protected when the examinees are open to abuse?

  47. anon600ad says:

    Van, re: assessment practices. I couldn’t agree with you more. I hear so many horror stories of students who are simply unable to graduate because of an arbitrary and vindictive academic. I feel particularly sorry for Hungarian students in this regard. The lack of power afforded to students in Hungarian institutions is really quite appalling, while it seems that academics live an almost charmed life where they can be downright assholes without ever having to show any justification or actual results. In that sense, yes, I agree absolutely that with privilege comes responsibility and as such, academics need to be accountable for their words and actions. At the very least, there needs to be a hell of a lot more moderation, with cross-checking and regular teaching evaluations.
    I also do take your point about the ‘class’ of academics and the selection process that goes with it. I am rather cynical about the selection process and of academics in general. Of the many academics I’ve met, I can think of less than ten that I would regard as worthwhile, with about 3 that I would regard as inspirational in both teaching and their own research. I also know that the selection of students for scholarships regularly goes not to the brightest student, or the one with the most relevant or poignant proposal, but to the one that might earn the most exposure, or who might at some stage have a nice little inheritance to re-invest into the university in question. Nevertheless, in all honesty, I would much rather study at a university that at least appears on the list somewhere higher than 300ish, even if for no other reason than it shows that the institution actually takes the opinion of others seriously, and isn’t so completely irrelevant to the world that no-one even knows who the hell they are.
    Anyway, I could rave all night about the evils of power politics in education, but I’m afraid that would bear little relevance to the free speech debate.

  48. AndRay says:

    Marianna what is your real name? Or office number? It is quite obvious you wrote the stupid thing.

  49. Visitor says:

    @iQ /”why the hell Pestiside hates CEU so much?” Because it stinks, probably, just like the people that committed it stink to high heaven, such as the whole dysfunctional Soros famiglia including the odious Vásárhelyi Klan. Why do you think so many countries including the Czech Republic kicked out these sleazeballs? ( ‘Klaus, in effect, kicked Central European University out of Prague. The no-nonsense Klaus wasn’t afraid of Soros’ ideas. He just didn’t want Soros money buying up Czech intellectuals.’ Beware of billionaires bearing gifts By Richard C. Morais, Forbes Magazine, April 7, 1997 http://tinyurl.com/dfuzpy ) There are few things that Hungary needs less than another cryptozionist breeding ground. Go to the London School of Economics or the University of Chicago like you always have and everyone involved will be much MUCH happier.
    @hápogó /You’re quite a data collector aren’t you, Sze? So, now what? Will you bomb the apartment buildings we live in or shall we just have a fatal accident on our way home from gay bars? (Where dog meat is served to the Nazi public… Cute little puppies!) Which of the collected statements is btw not true? But that’s not something that you care about, is it?

  50. Visitor says:

    You sound like Jack the Ripper preaching to a convent about women’s rights, Pollyanna… How many hundred thousand people have you killed last year? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxkVvVrMgnU (Sous les Bombes) Or the year before that. How many millions of lives have you destroyed? How many thousands have you tortured /tinyurl.com/bu8skh ? There have been over a million refugees from Iraq alone… Who the hell are you to preach morals to anyone, חצופֿה? But then you were you just working when you wrote your ‘comments,’ weren’t you? Working for the CEU… Isn’t that where you are employed, Pollyana? And, aren’t your comments part of the propaganda campaign that goes with the “Antisemitism in Present-Day Europe”/ tinyurl.com/cywcxy conference organized by the CEU? Coupled with a long-term program to suppress resistance to Zionist interests… “spray painting swastikas” How does ‘spray painting swastikas’ compare to the IDF issuing T-shirts to its soldiers showing pregnant Arab women in the cross-hairs of a rifle and the slogan ‘1 Shot 2 Kills.’ How sickening is that? Or doesn’t that disturb you, Pollyana?

  51. Visitor says:

    @Marianna, continued /”60% of Hungarians, for example, think negatively of gypsies, that is a race issue.” Are you on crack? People are KILLED, ROBBED and RAPED daily in the most bloodcurdling ways by Gypsies. How can you think of that positively? Oh, I get it, we should *tolerate* getting robbed and killed because you want to rob and kill us too! Don’t you have a Marquis de Sade kind of mind, deer… What a pity so many of us are wise to you, isn’t it, deer? “Rhetoric fans those flames and does nothing to bring about resolution” Like you’ve ever resolved anything. In the Americas, in Palestine, Iraq or Afghanistan. Yeah, please do it to us too. Bring us democracy and freedom… “Sound to me like this police violence crap is more typical Hungarian mentality BS” Well they certainly are _your police, aren’t they? And if they screw up you always have the FBI to fall back on or the ‘Defender that shall not be seen,’ right? “Whatever else the man may be,” Such as insane? ‘Next to my fantasies about being God, Soros told British television, “I also have very strong fantasies of being mad. In fact, my grandfather was actually paranoid. I have a lot of madness in my family. So far I have escaped it.’ http://tinyurl.com/dfuzpy “he is self-made” he was made by his obscenely rich wife, a few lucky bets and the most ruthless and powerful crime organization that has ever existed.

  52. Visitor says:

    @Viking /”life sentences for… persons in charge for the Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines… genocide, incitement to genocide, and crimes against humanity…” Do you know that Soros’s ‘main man’ in Hungary Vásárhelyi Miklós committed identical crimes in Hungary providing in 1945 press coverage for the anti Catholic campaign in which priest were murdered and/or sent to concentration camps? In 1948 he wrote a series of rabid articles in the Stalinist daily Szabad Nép demanding that the ‘Catholic bastards of the Pócspetri affair’ be hanged? (The Catholic bastards protested the closing of their school.) They were by the way hanged as Vásárhelyi ‘demanded.’ This is CEU’s background. And, these people are howling about ‘hate speech’ and ‘racism’ now. Isn’t that funny?

  53. Balazs says:

    I love that issue, because it’s so controversial and splits the people: what is actually free speech? If you think, that everybody has the same rights, so a neo-nazi has the same rights like a communist. Or is it not true? So it’s not a totally liberal society. Anyway: should a society be completely liberal? There are limits, but what are these?

    I think it’s sad that hate speech has a tradition in Hungary: the Nazis, the Communists and now almost every politician do that. The other thing that makes me feel sick is that everybody who says anything aganist the actual rulers (the socialist party), is a neo-nazi and everybody who tries to protest peacefully should be kicked by the police. Is it democracy? We should call this democracy? I don’t think so. If you shout “New Elections!” or anything like this, you will be taken by the police and you have to take off your clothes, they beat you and so on. If you say anything bad about the system, it’s a hate speech? It’s not democracy and it makes me sick. Why can’t you say what you mean? Isn’t Hungary a democtratic state? It doesn’t seem to be.

  54. Vándorló says:

    @Tünde: “I find offensive the cyber attacks by one, two or a group of people on Hungary and Hungarians using different nicks.” Then you find Visító’s comments offensive, too? He’s used a few names so far. Or do you only find offensive those whose views don’t tally with your own? Or over at RealDeal.hu and Politics.hu those who you supported and sympathised with that used a number of pseudo-noms-de-plume? Or your beloved Stan, who has also used alternate names at times. Is that the only basis for your objection, that they don’t agree with you?
    Of all of them Visító is the most interesting case, he at least uses partial masking using the popular (but unsophisticated) Tor network of anonymisers.
    Anyway, the question is why does it always matter to you who someone is rather than the reasoning in their argument? It only matters who someone is if they are being two faced, abusing power, likely to cause unknowing harm and damage to someone without that person having knowledge, power or opportunity to protect themselves. And protection has nothing to do with the physical realm, but the cognitive one in which we live and you earn your living.

  55. Tünde says:

    Erik: Spelling. Excellent comeback, and good joke! Good sign of complex debating skills to joke about the spelling of Hungarians (but not anglo posters) in lieu of a real reply. Pestiside is not a word, so telling me to take a course in writing because I “misspelled” it is rich. I think I’ll keep my spelling of Pesticide, as it fits so well the profile of the site. I still find it difficult to believe that you have problems with registration and monitoring.

    Re: CEU and liberalism. Perhaps this generates no surprise because there are a few of us out there who never thought the CEU was liberal. I am surprised though, that a CEU prof would admit not being liberal. And how is CEU itself liberal? In what way? Ever used their library? Or seen their periodical list? If you think liberalism means pushing an agenda (neoliberal globalisation, multiculturalism, the nation state as the source of prejudice, conflict etc.), then yes CEU is liberal. An example of CEU’s “liberalism” or in my preferred word, tolerance: Two years ago they hosted their conference on anti-semitism, on Easter Sunday and Monday, in a region where, for many, this is a holiday as or more important than Christmas.

  56. Tünde says:

    Marianna: Although I am pretty sure I would not agree with your view of moderating this site, or your view of saintly Soros, I stand corrected on your view of Pesticide’s motivation, and I think you are probably right. Obviously there is no goal here to have any real debates, and many Pesticide’s own posting are provocative, with no real purpose other than to generate traffic. Re: police violence. So you are saying that because it is worse in non democratic countries, we should not complain? And when was the last time anti government protesters were gassed or beaten in the US?

  57. Marianna says:

    Tunde, I can think of several recent events in the US. Look at the
    Republican convention in Minnesota last year, or during the
    anti-war protests in many cities over the past several years. I’m
    not suggesting not to complain about violence here, but come
    on. If protestors are flipping cars over, smashing windows,
    damaging property, how exactly would you get them to stop?

    Regarding moderation, I again point to craigslist.org as an
    example. If you look at the terms of use, it is explicitly spelled
    out what is acceptable behavior on the site. Users who violate it
    get a warning; if they continue, their account is temporarily
    banned, and if they persist after that, then the ban is permanent.
    The point is to define what is or is not ok, and enforce from
    there. I agree that the difficulties of moderation are overblown.
    This site does not get that much traffic, and it seems there are
    only the same handful of people who post anyway.

  58. Erik says:

    @Marianna: I have a suggestion. I’ll put finishing our “terms and conditions” page higher up on our todo list if you quit dodging my question in comment #43.

  59. Viking says:

    So Visitor, would you support a trial against Vásárhelyi Miklós for the crimes you are claiming he did and here we speak about the point of using “Free Speech” to demand that someone is hanged etc, exactly as you claim.

  60. Visitor says:

    VándorLoo: “Then you find [Master Visitor's] comments offensive, too? etc…” Another record keeper, another round of threats… ‘Better be careful we know who you are!’ Tricks: Denounce each other! ( Tünde, különülj már el tőlem! Ne várasd ezt a… a… hm.. tudodkit :)) ‘Kill each other for us!’ ChosenBoy’s almost every sentence betrays the sadistic mentality that is so typical of his ilk. What if we screw _you instead of one another for a change, Loo? “Anyway, the question is why does it always matter to you who someone is rather than the reasoning in their argument?” I agree completely! :-o “It only matters who someone is if they are being two faced, abusing power, likely to cause unknowing harm and damage to someone without that person having knowledge, power or opportunity to protect themselves.” Which perfectly describes what you are doing threatening and stalking us. Will you now introduce yourself? “And protection has nothing to do with the physical realm, but the cognitive one in which we live and you earn your living” You lost me here.. The effects of your 8th, 9th, _10th? batch of pills were probably beginning to wear off… Yes?
    @Viking /1. Vásárhelyi ‘s dead 2. He didn’t ‘use free speech’ he exercised absolute power on behalf of a genocidal dictator (re)named Rákosi (Rosenfeld originally)

  61. Marianna says:

    Erik, not willfully dodging. I actually had answered but got an
    error after typing a response and didn’t have time to type it
    again and repost.

    Maybe I’ll answer your question if you stop dodging posting the
    full context of the email you received from the professor. ;-)

    I can’t decide if your question is interesting or silly. If an
    individual sent you personal correspondence, and they
    expressed their opinion that the Garda is correct, I would view
    that as a personal conversation between you and them. I’m not
    sure I would care that they hold those views, provided that, as a
    professor, it did not interfere with treating his students of gypsy
    origin fairly. If he was out publicly demonstrating or speaking
    on these points of view, that to me is a different story.

    I would suspect that you do receive email on both sides —
    people who think some of the comments on this site are too
    extreme, and people who write in to tell you how much they
    hate this, that, and other race. If you do receive that kind of
    email, you don’t see fit to post them. Is a professor such a
    newsworthy story? Most universities try to uphold some standard
    of non discrimination and fairness. CEU is not unique in that
    respect.

  62. Erik says:

    @Marianna: If that is really your position – that a professor’s admission of hating the Roma should be kept private, provided it doesn’t interfere with their ability to teach, etc. – then I salute you for being intellectually and morally consistent, which is really what this is all about. As for publishing the whole email exchange, for no particular reason that just strikes me as more nasty and juvenile than this whole witch-hunt. (Plus, if you are really this concerned with privacy you wouldn’t want me to publish it, right?) But again, if you really do believe what you say in the above, then good for you, and I am not being sarcastic.

  63. Tünde says:

    Marianna: Not that I normally advocate damaging public property, but the present “socialist” government did far more damage to public property by selling the Television headquarters, and then staying there, and renting it back on public money, at a massive cost to taxpayers, than those vandals. I don’t know how you have managed to group all the police brutality together, but I was speaking of innocent demonstrators, such as those who were at the Fidesz rally, who were shot (aiming at heads!) with rubber bullets by police, and/or beaten on the street, or humiliated in prison. Would an opposition representative in the US be beaten on the street by policemen, (and have a coalition MP joke about it)? I think not. It is not by chance that the police have been forced to pay massive damages (again, at the taxpayers expense), and it was not to people who set fire to cars.

  64. Marianna says:

    Tunde, I’m not familiar with the back and forth of the TV station,
    but a couple points in response. I was at an anti war
    demonstration in San Francisco a couple of years ago, and yes,
    police were shooting rubber people at people there, and yes,
    they were hit in the head. Dozens of people people were taken
    to the police station and booked. So it happens. It sucks that it
    happens, but it also sucks that a small minority can cause so
    much chaos that innocent people get caught up in the mess as
    the police try to restore order. I get more angry at that violent
    minority than I do the police who are trying to do their job. I find
    it hard to believe that police just start firing bullets and beating
    people just out of the blue, on the street, at a demonstration.
    This happens in RESPONSE to something, and doesn’t just
    happen indiscriminately. What happens at the station, etc. I’m
    sure it is humiliating, but that also happens elsewhere. All I am
    suggesting as that people look at the police here with
    perspective. In Minneapolis, 600 people were arrested,
    protesting the convention. 4 houses were raided ahead of that.
    My point is simply that I don’t think police here are worse than
    other places, in response to protest. As far as opposition joking
    about protesters, I’m sorry, but have you never listening to
    George Bush or Dick Cheney?

  65. Tünde says:

    Erik re: Soros and using his “own” money to fund a university. The man did not get rich by building a business, he got rich on speculation, so I think he actually is using some poor schlub’s money. A friend of mine was living in London at the time of the speculation against the pound. He told me then that Soros is using his (my friend’s) money to build his “open” society. He lost a lot of money he had worked hard for, in a real job. Some of that speculation had disasterous consequences for the object of the speculation, such as Asian currencies. He is also linked to drug cartels, and bought a huge amount of shares in Halliburton, when he was supposed to be waging a campaign (MoveOn) against Bush and the iraqi invasion.

  66. Tünde says:

    IQ101,137: (they do say too much pornography ruins the brain) on Pesticide’s not being PC. When has Pesticide not been PC? Criticising certain groups (Roma, homosexuals, Jews) is taboo, while a running joke is the alcoholism and suicide rate in this country (naturally, among Hungarians, who are stupid enough to be born in a village and set themselves on fire. Any jokes about similar Tibetans?). By the way Pesticide staff, there are terrible alcoholism and dependence problems, such as glue sniffing, amongst the Roma, which I find as unfunny as those kinds of problems among non Roma, but feel free to joke about them. Try it once, and then see how many posters you get telling anyone, Roma or otherwise, tell them to clear off (as I am told often). To those of you complaining about the suppression of free speech or exchange of views, that is a laugh. When is an exchange of views multiple attacks on a selected group of Hungarian posters where there is no debate, only calling a poster a fascist, nazi or racist. Familiar tactics, the “communists” used them well, still do. Look at C’est moi’s comments or the numerous unnamed ones: the Germans having deserved Dresden, and collective punishment. I am perfectly willing to have an exchange of views until I am attacked namelessly, or constantly called a racist with absolutely no knowledge or support to an argument (Axeman, Vándorló, UJ). Too obvious are the posts from various nicks who have nothing actually to say, except to cut and paste from posters they don’t like, and/or call them vile names.

  67. Erik says:

    @Tünde: I take deep offense at your suggestion that we haven’t caused deep offense to the Roma, homosexuals and Jews, all of whom have gotten a good slap on these pages. Maybe we’ll make it up for you with a withering post about Hebrew homo Romas…

  68. Viking says:

    No, Visitor, do not mix the cards now.
    The question is of the War Crimes Tribunal for Rwanda was correct to convict a News Paper Editor for Hate Crimes (Inciting to Genocide) or not?

    The same would then apply to your favourite Hungarian, right?

    Of course both exercised “Free Speech”, they had a free will to say what they wanted or take the consequences. Like we all do every day. Or is not that what Budahazy and his friends are doing every day?

    “Free Speech” is not only to say what is not popular, per definition it is of course to say what is popular. Like Hitler’s anti-Jewish speech were popular in Germany in the 30’s. Today they would get you in jail if you repeat what he said 70 years ago, at least in Germany. So freedom was better in the 30’s? Or maybe – freedom in Hungary today is like in Germany in the 30’s?

  69. C'est moi says:

    Tunde – To clarify, I did not say “the Germans having deserved Dresden” my argument is that it is a bit unfair for the protagonist of WWII, to claim victimhood after the tides turned against them. To that I say “boo-fucking-hoo” just like I do when any of the nutters around here brings up Trianon.

  70. Stan says:

    Marianna says:
    “police were shooting rubber people at people there”.

    Now that’s police brutality all right. What kind of rubber people were they shooting, rubber chicks or rubber dudes?

  71. Marianna says:

    Stan, forgive a person a typo, will you? Rubber BULLETS at people,
    not rubber people at people. :-)

    But if you are interested in police brutality, look up the case of
    Abner Louima. Or the recent case of Oakland police shooting
    someone execution style on the BART platform.

    Not that either of these cases have to do with the free speech
    debate per se, just again perspective on what is brutality versus
    breaking up violence in a riot.

  72. John says:

    Tünde,
    the correct spelling is anti-war. Furthermore, we should not forget that the CEU Professor ought to have written “If I were a liberal.”
    The problem with the CEU is you cannot have an American style university if you have a tightly knit group of former elvtársok running it, you get a Democracy without Democrats.
    The real scandal is that the intellectuals have abandoned Tamás Gáspár Miklós for speaking out against their hypocricy. If you read Vásárhelyi Mária or Heller Ágnes (the people TGM criticized) it sounds like every Roma is God’s child but the Palestians are simple terrorists. At least TGM defends both groups.
    (The father of Vásárhelyi Mária was the head of the Soros foundation for a while and one of the founders of the CEU. It is a pity that his daughter has become a voice for intolerance.)

  73. Erik says:

    John: Good points, though remember that many American-styles universities *in America* are not only run by (as you so nicely put it) tightly-knit groups of former elvtársok, but tightly-knit groups of current elvtársok (i.e. unreconstructed blood commies) who in either case are less tolerant than their Hungarian equivalents. As for TGM, Vásárhelyi the Younger, Heller, etc., the fact that any of these insufferable, empty-headed grant-eaters is paid attention to outside of their own kitchens is proof of just how useless the entire Hungarian intellectual-industrial complex is. I’m frankly more interested in the views of the housepainter currently plastering my kitchen than these bozo poseurs, and the thought that he is probably subsidizing their blathering makes me want to scream.

  74. Tünde says:

    Marianna: “I get more angry at that violent minority than I do the police who are trying to do their job.” I cannot believe this. You are saying that a violent minority are against the government, and that police who kick people when they are down are “just doing their job”. I find it very sad that you come to a country which has had democratic right to protest for 50 years, and indeed where people were killed and tortured for protesting a system, and then projecting the idea, here and probably elsewhere, that protesters against a government which has ransacked this country are a small, violent minority. What on earth do you get this? Perhaps CEU profs? As the CEU is a dumping ground for SZDSZ insiders, who like to promote this idea, that may be the case. It is obvious that you are confusing the TV building attacks with all the demonstrations, and that you really have no idea of what kind of protests and abuses against protesters have gone on here. This government has been a disaster, and the ruling party’s polls are in the dustbin, and among their most loyal too (older, MSZP voters) and yet you think a “violent minority” is protesting. In addition, for you to justify police brutality (why not take a look at a photo of a Hungarian policeman in protest resistance gear) to say that it was “provoked” is shocking. And you misread my question. I did not ask if US reps would joke about protesters, I asked if jokes would be make if US representative was beaten leaving a rally by a policeman (and no, there was nothing the Hungarian MP did to “provoke” being knocked to the ground and then kicked) and then have that incident be joked about in the US House? I will answer it for you. No.

    As for Bush and Cheney joking about protesters, well that just proves what kind of a democracy the US really is.

  75. Marianna says:

    Tunde, can you take your emotion out of it and try again? The
    vitriol renders your post nearly unintelligible, and your emotion
    also clearly makes it difficult for you to read.

    Protests do not have to be violent, most of the time they are not.
    When you have police cracking down because a minority of people
    use the protest as an excuse to be violent. That violent minority of
    people severely diminish the goals of people protesting peacefully.
    It makes the entire group look like animals rather that people with
    a reasonable complaint.

    Also for the record, I do not go to CEU, nor do I support any
    political party in Hungary. They are all a joke in my opinion. You
    have ineptitude on one side, and populist rhetoric on the other.

  76. Tünde says:

    John: While I think that correcting small spelling or grammar mistakes on sites such as this is petty to the extreme, please note that Marianna wrote anti war, not I. Re: Vásárhelyi Mária, if you read what Visitor wrote about Vásárhelyi Miklós, you would understand that that she is actually very much as her father was. Vásárhelyi Miklós did call for Catholics priests to be executed. Also the left didn’t abandon TGM, they expelled him when it turned out he actually was a liberal in the tolerant sense, and a humanist. The CEU keeps him on as the decorative dissident.

    Erik: If you think that certain Hungarian “intellectuals” are not listened to outside of Hungary, then you have no knowledge of Heller, where she has taught, and still teaches, and what international prizes she has won. And I really can’t see that you are balanced in your tabloid portraits or comments, (“the IDF does not target innocent people”), but please do not imply that I would be happy with if you balanced the site by joking about the misfortunes of others, although that would be more liberal, in the sense that nothing is sacred is considered to be liberal.

    C’est Moi I followed your example and cut and pasted: “While it can be agreed that Dresden was unnecessary and truly an act of ‘blood vengeance’ (you see I did not write that I agree with 160 as it may give him comfort in his sick and twisted little thoughts), all I have to say about this is too fucking bad. Germans chose Hitler and the paid the price for his support, this is the justification.” If that is not saying that Germans deserved it, and that you agree with collective punishment I do not know what is. And that you say the same about Trianon shows a really very strange, or rather familiar view of history.

  77. John says:

    mea culpa Tünde, mea maxima culpa. I did not know about Miklós Vásárhelyi and confused you with Marianna.
    No changing Marianna’s misguided views at this point though, her first Hungarian boyfriend or her co-workers probably brainwashed her and now she is too blind to see the truth. Then again, sadly it is the same everywhere that people inherit, rather than develop their political beliefs. How many people do you know who have radically different opinions than their parents?

  78. UJ says:

    @Tunde – You flatter yourself if you think you present sound and unbiased arguments. Your xenophobic comments are clearly documented and ‘The Racist’ label well-deserved. Anyone who has spent some time on these boards, and read what you’ve written could attest to that.
    I have no interest in debating someone who implies that blacks &/or muslims are genetically programmed to rape (white) women once placed outside their ‘natural environment’, and other similar statements.
    Even when debating economics, you go beyond your realm of understanding when you are unable to comprehend simple statements (eg how the Koreans found success in creating synergy between their education & economic policies to create some sort of national competitive advantage). Instead, you preferred to veer off the topic, and demonstrate your xenophobic prejudices in ranting how you found Koreans racist & sexist, rather than in presenting your arguments on how it such a policy apply to Hungary’s economy. I dont want to get into producing a C’est Moi style log of your comments, but it wouldn’t be difficult for anyone to produce a longer list for you than what he did for Stan.
    For an academic (pseudo-half baked?), you are oblivious to a wide array of blatantly deficient arguments presented by some of your compatriots, but are quick to yell out imagined & (often) irrelevant deficiencies in many statements which come from non-Hungarians. Van was right. I shudder to think of the consequences of such behaviour in your professional role if you are indeed involved in examining students for orals or thesis defense. I wonder how many students have been penalised unfairly by you in the past.

  79. Vándorló says:

    @John: @John: Use of the subjunctive ‘were’ vs ‘was’ isn’t universal and is generally only important if you want to sound educated (obviously not a priority in this writer’s case). Also, it only really sounds terrible if used incorrectly in the inverted form ‘Were I a/Was I a…’. As with Shaw’s attack on English spelling (were ‘fish’ could be spelt ‘ghoti’ on the basis of the phonemes from enough, women and nation), Maugham wasn’t a fan of the subjunctive, noting “The subjunctive mood is in its death throes, and the best thing to do is to put it out of its misery as soon as possible.” (see also Twain and Robertson Davies on this). With these descriptive/prescriptive grammar issues I would err on the side of an average native speaker – they would be less likely to use the subjective.

    I wouldn’t worry though, Tünde doesn’t know the difference between someone being a psychopath (‘pszichopata’) and someone having a psychopathic personality disorder (‘pszichopata személyiségzavár’). I wonder why?

    If it counts my father was a rabid Irish nationalist, I am a rabid anti nationalist. He had the good sense to raise all his 7 children with a healthy disrespect for anyone bearing bullshit and that included his own.

    Don’t be so up yourself Johnny boy.

  80. Vándorló says:

    @Tünde: I’ve been waiting for you to get your spine back. This is half way to answering you as I’m off out, but will post the rest later, mainly on the psychology, cognitive and sociliological issues your (latest) rant raises.

    OK, so you claim you are not racist, despite claiming to know a person’s complete cognitive framework, social, political and ethical motivations on the basis of their broad nationality or ethnicity (you have yet to clarify whether you understand these as being distinct).
    So, you claim I have no basis to call you racist, though I have outlined my objections and asked you specific questions in relation to your statements that led me to make assertions in this regard. Would you now clarify your understanding of these issues if I were to put these to you once more?
    1.You claim that Roma behaviour is inherently violent. Not only that it is violent, but that this behaviour has not only a socially inherited pattern, but is genetically inherited. You referenced the criminologist Póczik Szilveszter’s opinion in this regards, though noting that neither she nor yourself are scientists in this regard. The specific phrase you used to back up your claims was a ‘culturally genetically inherited patterns of behavior’ (“kulturgenetikusan öröklődő viselkedésformák”). So not just culturally inherited, but genetically inherited behaviour.
    2.What specific behaviours were you referring to? Well, specifically that they ‘appear to be adaptable, but really not at all’. They are ‘scavengers’ due to their inherited lifestyle of travelling („I cannot imagine that the impact of thousands of years of wandering can simply be ignored.” underlining your genetic argument)
    3.More importantly you argue that their cognitive abilities are inferior to Hungarians. As you state they lack „the inability to plan long term”

    This genetically inherited behavioural characteristics, how does it work? How does something in the phenotype of an organism enter the genotype – or visa versa. Where on the mitochondrial DNA sequence can we hope to find these Roma deviant gene sequences?

  81. Tünde says:

    Marianna: Actually it was your post that is unintelligible. You continue to be confused about police brutality here and your view of the citizens rights would have been right at home here pre 1989. Where you aware that many police were not wearing identification badges during at least two protests? Now you have come from saying that when there is police brutality that 1. we shouldn’t complain because it is worse in Cuba 2. there must be a reason for it and 3. someone is provoking it and 4. police, when brutal, are just doing their job, to now simply “protests do not have to be violent”. No they do not. So? What are you calling violent? Destruction of property? Or attacks on police? Police at the television station were attacked and those there were just doing their job, and I truly feel sorry for them. Particularly as their commanders were either incompetent or sent them into that mess unprepared on purpose. There were the police who attacked innocent protesters. And some people have even lost eyes or fingers. There were police who humliated people in on the street and in prison, and those police should be brought to justice, and many were. So what exactly is your point?

  82. C'est moi says:

    Civil disobedience is still disobedience

  83. Tünde says:

    UJ: I did not “rant” about Koreans being racist and sexist, and you very well know that. I pointed out those characteristics, because you criticised some Hungarians (such as me) for things, such as nationalism and then admired it in the Koreans. Also, you are twisting my posts on the Somalis, and the social context of rape, which by your own admission you know nothing about, and you know that too. Also, your knowledge of economics is extremely shaky. Writing that my saying the US has been supporting the auto industry for decades saying I must be thinking of Chrysler, shows absolutely no knowledge of that issue. But go ahead and be simplistic, twist my arguments and label me. It is very effective in avoiding any real debate.

  84. Tünde says:

    Vándorló how very honest of you to cut and paste from the debate on Varangy (Póczik Szilveszter is a man, by the way, a respected criminologist). Long term planning was in the study, and I did not say inferior, don’t you dare twist that. Someone said recently: “the tactics of …. plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency and include character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth.” Thought they were talking about you at first when I read that. Having exchange with you on this is like watching former censor Lendvai Ildikó talking about free speech. Given your past mode of debate, and the attempts to expose people you don’t agree with, playing the poster wishing for a rational debate doesn’t do. You have been one of the most vile, to use your favourite word. And as I have made it clear before, but as your narrow mind cannot grasp this, I willl spell it out again as you think I agree with the 4 posters (Ricsi, Stan, HotP, Farkas) who have been attacked. I don’t, on several points, and I have argued with them. But whether or not I agree is irrelevant. Ricsi and HotP seem to be gone. Many in this thread are out to ban Stan. So I am obviously next, and László not far behind. And I understand that this is a difficult concept for you as I am pretty sure you have done it yourself (Japanese, hebrew characters, and was it you who linked my name to Geert Wilder?), but false multiple posting by one poster is dishonest, which is why normal blogs try to control that. What is your Realside point? Try to be coherent. Mine there are mostly argumentative. It was on another thread that I discussed the origin of posters, because I find it laughable to have people from rich powerful countries who have no history of war, want or dictatorship discuss, in a superior attitude, with little knowledge of history here, the sad state of the Hungarian police force or education when they have problems in both areas themselves (UK) or people talking about rotten leaders or failed economies here (US, ditto). “It only matters who someone is if they are being two faced, abusing power, likely to cause unknowing harm and damage to someone without that person having knowledge, power or opportunity to protect themselves.” This from someone who is out to expose me and Farkas László and doing id searches? So it is okay that you do this, it is our fault that we are not protecting ourselves?

  85. HAZAFI says:

    Exile all gypsys.
    If they dont leave peacebly force them out.
    If they resist exterminate them.
    Stan for Prime Miniszter!
    Visitor for Kulugy Miniszter!
    Szebb Jovott!!!

  86. Vándorló says:

    @Tünde: “Vándorló how very honest of you to cut and paste from the debate on Varangy” Let’s just sort this out first. 1. The stuff over at Varangy you took over there because you wanted to debate there and wouldn’t answer here. 2. So I took what was here, to there. Very little new stuff was added by you or me to the debate.
    I had already made clear how much reading I have done in preparation for this. How I took your view as truth and saw if I could accept in in balance. I found out a lot of uncomfortable and surprising stuff along the way and am now ready to discuss at least parts of this research.
    And you, what did you do? Sod all I guess. Just chewed over your already over-chewed, pre-potted views with your racist friends who all bleated to eat other in agreement.
    The rest of what you say is your normal incoherent shite. You say you are not racist, so answer the questions and points I put or clarify them. Don’t give me any bollix about me being underhand. I don’t make stuff up (like Stan, HP, Germinator…) or pretend to be more or less than I am (like Stan, HP, Germinator…). I don’t pull facts and figures out of my arse nor invent history. And I don’t f’in whinge everytime someone calls me on something ‘cos it’s clear I’m talking out my arse, like you do. All the things that annoy you about me I have admitted to where I was an agent. The rest is just you slowly losing it.
    Get this much clear I don’t give a friggin frig who you or anyone else is. I am a computer specialist, have been a network manager, have 2 computing degrees and specialised in linguistic and cognitive psychology. So the rest of what I do is for fun and entertainment, because I can and it’s easy for me and yes, like I said it’s kind of childish, but I just like to keep *personal* track of things. Everything I do is in the public realm, anyone can do it if they know how.
    So anyway racist, answer the questions. I can quote the full context for you and then slowly pull your pathetic world view apart if you want. It will be slower and more emotionally draining, but if that’s what you want?
    It was you that brought it up again, you that called forth the demons. Never heard of laissez faire, let sleeping dogs lie, ne ébreszd fel az alvó oroszlánt?
    If you don’t want to talk about something, then shut up and stop moaning, whingeing and whining. Otherwise, answer the questions, racist. Clarify this crap you spout. What am I misunderstanding? You did say all this didn’t you? Yes, so talk.

  87. Vándorló says:

    @HAZAFI: Look Ricsi, it’s obvious this is you, because you are the only person that misspells “Szebb Jovott!!!” It’s one ‘t’ on the direct object Ricsi, just the one (“Szebb Jövőt”). Even Google knows the difference. Hope you’re getting Hungarian lessons, where ever you are.

  88. UJ says:

    @Tunde – I don’t admire nationalists of any country, so you obviously misunderstood my point. Feel free to re-read the post in its entirety. If you still come to the same conclusion, ask a non-Hungarian colleague to explain to you.
    Wrt rape – I said, I would not understand it in the same way as a woman. Feel free to twist that in whatever way you want. However, this doesnt validate your racist comments on Somalis, Muslims, or any other Africans in your previous posts.
    Your comment on the auto-industry was extremely vague, and I used a period of 25 years to set a relevant time frame for the sake of discussion, which you failed to take up.
    Shaky economics? Wow, that would really be a surprise to the dean, not to mention, my colleagues.
    You dont need to reply to this post.

  89. Stan says:

    Vándorló says:
    “I had already made clear how much reading I have done”.

    Reading is not for everyone. Give it up, kid, you’re hopelessly confused already. You have no idea how pathetic you really are. See a therapist before you hurt your sorry self.

  90. Tünde says:

    (Im)migrant: I debated at Varangy because that forum is better, it would not fit here, BSE deleted that post and because Mark, Adrian and I were posting on it. “I had already made clear how much reading I have done in preparation for this.” Yes and although promising a treatise on Varangy, you didn’t continue that post. What is it with you, does nothing really interest you? Just into arguing on the internet? It still seems your knowledge of the question is zero. Do you even know a gypsy? Not that that is a requirement, but all the oh so multikulti so-called liberals on this site who live here never seem to actually know any. “You did say all this didn’t you?” Say what? You are losing it. I quoted the long term planning thing, you added the cognitive inferiority, but I won’t argue, because the inability to not plan longterm is inferior. I did not say gypsies are genetically incapable of it, however, as you well know. You are not a scientist either, you cultural imperialist pseudointellectual libero-fascist, so what makes you an expert? Póczik is, and one of the foremost in the field. And you stopped the discussion right there by writing Hungarians and their studies can’t be trusted on this issue. Talk about categorizing! I did not bring this up again, I was referring to how people stop debate by calling people names (racist Tünde) and using other tactics such as yours. Some of which could be stopped by truly minimal tools by the sites operator.

    I cannot believe you are Irish, and I have such respect for that people and culture.

    UJ: Useless people clog teaching staff around the world, you would be no exception.

  91. UJ says:

    @Tunde – I’ve consistently received better (top 10%) external, peer and student reviews than ‘your kind’ in every place I have taught.
    We know who’s really clogging the process.

  92. Dr Who says:

    Tunde seems like your are being targeted by evil! Don’t waste your energy on debating with them they are set in there ways and wont change there views, however it’s true what you appear to be saying about the conditions of Hungarians, so be strong and stick to your Virtues.
    Currently we are struggling to uproot the evil, so don’t touch the weeds until time of harvest, soon the evil will be exposed and they wont have anywhere to hide, have faith and Love..

  93. Axeman Eugene says:

    @Sung out of Tun(d)e*

    Hey You
    Out there in the cold
    Getting lonely, getting old
    Can you feel me?
    Hey you, standing in the aisle
    With itching feet and fading smile
    Can you feel me
    Hey you dont help them to bury the light
    Open your heart, I’m coming home*
    .
    .
    Hey You, out there beyond the wall
    Breaking bottles in the hall
    Can you help me
    Hey you, dont tell me there no hope at all
    Together we stand, divided we fall.

  94. Légió says:

    @Tünde: “És kérdezé tõle: Mi a neved? És felele, mondván: Légió a nevem, mert sokan vagyunk.” (Mark, 5:9)

    I hereby declare and demand my freedom to remain unbound and shackled by name, epithet, nom-de-plume, nickname, avatar, proper noun or any other linguistically identifiable and stable index, now or in perpetuity. I declare this right in direct protest at Tünde’s targetted turdish tempter tantrums over name-shifting by people who disagree with her, but direct and implicit acceptance of the same by people who agree or are sympathetic with her views. We, the undersigned and those yet to come, declare this right to be final and irrevocable,
    Vándorló, Légió, Legion, 三人成虎, נרון קסר 壁に耳あり、障子に目あり

    I’ll just address your comment about my ‘Irishness’ next, then move back to the topic at hand and the questions you keep avoiding.

  95. 三人成虎 says:

    @Tünde: Like it or not my father was Irish, one of 10, born county Kerry (no Kerryman jokes please, I think I’ve heard them all). My mother was born in England, Liverpool, of Irish parents, my maternal grandfather one of 18, my grandmother one of only 6. Apart from my maternal great, great grandmother – who was Spanish – the lineage is, at least genetically, pretty much Irish. Of course, like I have made clear, I am from the UK, which as I taught Stan, does not include Southern Ireland. I deliberately did not say I was from the British Isles. Let me make it even clearer, I am from Great Britain, so not even Northern Ireland. Are you following?
    Like I made clear, I am not Irish, but I have a feeling this jars with your interpretation of nationality and ethnicity. Just as the Nazis found it hard to adjust their theories about the Aryan race to cope with the fact the Roma are genetically and linguistically more Aryan than most nationalities in Europe – certainly more than Hungarians are.
    So, tell me, do my genes alone make me Irish? What of culture and up bringing? I did say, I am your worse nightmare, or words to that effect.
    Let me make it even harder for you. Up to the age of 18 I was taught by Irish Catholic Brothers. My classmates from kinder garden through to secondary school had great, noble surnames the likes of Hughes, O’Connor, O’Toole, McGillicuddy (of course, these are all the Anglicized versions). In fact, there were often far too many O’Connors to the class, so they had numbers O’Connor No 1, O’Connor No 2… But even with these names they didn’t have to put up with the somewhat exotic given names me and my brothers and sisters were burdened with. I have brothers with names the like of Fintan, Tadhgh, Padraig, Seamus, Oisín, Bhincent… (we each have more than 3 names each, hence my disrespect for one crummy name). My sisters Grania, Deirdre, Etienne… (again, all Anglicized).
    The trouble is kids are born evil and there’s nothing funnier than a funny name – and we had more than our fair share. Like Johnny Cash’s song ‘A Boy named Sue’ we all grew up embattled due to the simple distinguishing feature. And when the IRA were taking apart the mainland every weekday, it was we that were always detained at the borders for questioning, had extra security checks to work in the city (London financial district) etc… (cont…)

  96. 三人成虎 says:

    @Tünde: cont…

    Of course, by the time you leave school, having a somewhat exotic sounding name helps. People never forget my name, because I have to say it three times and spell it for them. But it’s still a pain.
    For example, more than 5 years ago I was working in Glasgow and during my lunch break I wanted to locate a piece of hardware that I knew I could get on an industrial estate on the edge of town. When I got to the estate I started off in the right direction, but quickly got lost amongst the monotone housing estate blocks. So I asked a guy in a suit where the place was. He offered to show me, as it wasn’t much out of his way. We head off and start to chat about nothing in particular – actually he was doing all the chatting as I was trying to decode what the f*ck he was saying through his thick Glaswegian accent. Then he stops, grabs my arm and points at the housing block in front of me. “Catholic bastards!’, he say in a whisper. ‘Full of them. Like rabbits, the bastards….’ He continues on describing their virtues, social and cultural characteristics in the same tone for a few minutes. Once he stops he seems pleased, relieved. It was obviously cathartic for him, bless him. It’s at this point that he decides to introduce himself and ask my name. I take a look around, I’m in a Glasgow housing estate with a rabid sectarian, miles from safety. So I use one of my standard alternate names, used to help people overcome their prejudices and just get on treating people at face value. “John Donne” I say. “John Done?’ he asks. “No, Donne, like the poet”. He looks at me like I’m gay, he doesn’t like poets either it seems. “As in, ‘no man is an island…. don’t ask for whom the bell tolls…’” I can see this is only aggravating things, so I let it drop. We carry on past the ‘Catholic bastards’ and I eventually get what I set out for, while my sectarian friend goes on his way, none the wiser that he may be guilty of collaborating with the enemy.
    So, Tünde, what do you think, am I Irish? Nature or nurture? Which is stronger, blood or water? What counts? What is nationality to you? Tell me Tünde, am I Irish?

  97. Vándorló says:

    @Tünde: Thought you might appreciate more of Donne’s thoughts, particularly in light of the fact that most Roma are catholic and by Christian principles alone, do you not have a duty to each other? What do you think HP/Dr.Who?

    “PERCHANCE hee for whom this Bell tolls, may be so ill, as that he knowes not it tolls for him; And perchance I may thinke my selfe so much better than I am, as that they who are about mee, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for mee, and I know not that… All mankinde is of one Author, and is one volume; when one Man dies, one Chapter is not torne out of the booke, but translated into a better language; and every Chapter must be so translated… No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. Neither can we call this a begging of Miserie or a borrowing of Miserie, as though we were not miserable enough of our selves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the Miserie of our Neighbours… “ (John Donne, Meditation XVII)

  98. Doktor Ki (v.12) says:

    By the Time Vortex, we appear to have a Cyberman imposter in our midst! Or perhaps it’s my arch-nemesis The Master posing as me (though he should be dead!)? Anyhow, begone false Dr, or I’ll land the TARDIS on your head.

    The Two Doctors storyline has already been made by two of my earlier regenerations so I’m in no mood to remake it now I’m on my last one. Go find another moniker to rip off please.

  99. anon600ad says:

    Tunde: Although I realise it could be read otherwise, my intention here is not to attack you personally, but to try to give an alternate perspective to your writing. For what it’s worth, I don’t always disagree with you, and I certainly don’t see Hungarians as ‘inferior’ in any way. My writing is not meant to sound sarcastic or sardonic, but more to be direct and avoid painful PC-speak. I don’t think that anyone is really trying to get you or Stan banned from Pestiside. In fact, I am almost certain Eric is not going to kick you off. I bet he hopes you will post so that there WILL be some back and forth. My comment about moving on was more to highlight the futility of complaining about someone having insulted you, while doing everything you can to hurt them in return. Just to reassure you though, I have no idea who you are, and I don’t really care. I have no interest or intention of ever pursuing your identity beyond what you write in this forum. While I very occasionally read politics.hu and realdeal, it is not to follow your posts or to digitally ‘stalk’ you. For my part, I have never used any other identity to post. I like the idea of being partly anonymous…not for any secretive or devious reason, but partly because the job I was doing made me feel nervous at times and so I didn’t want to be recognisable online by anyone connected to my employer, and partly because of my ongoing ‘existential angst’ that still makes me question my own existence.
    Re: Spelling. Generally speaking, I’d agree with you about spelling corrections being a bit petty. It is however, a bit harder to resist when someone is writing insults of a very personal nature while making obvious errors that just make it all look kind of foolish. Nevertheless, your point has value and besides, everyone (even native English speakers) makes errors.

  100. anon600ad says:

    On free speech and what should be done at pestiside…well, as it is, I have the freedom to post what I want, so does Van, Stan, Visitor, CM and you. Along with that comes the reality that responses are very likely not going to be what we wanted or expected. Sometimes there are posts that make me think and some that make me shake my head, but here’s the thing. This is not one way traffic. I think you give as much (and sometimes more) than you get. There have been times when you have misinterpreted or misread another’s post, made completely incorrect assumptions and times when you have applied unjustified or inaccurate labels. I have also seen you use incredibly condescending language to do your best to humiliate someone else. To me, your writing is often melodramatic and seems to take on a tone of ‘injured innocence’, which is just not really believable.

    Personally I feel that free speech is not just about saying what I want, but also respecting the right of others to respond in a like manner. Maybe it’s just karma. I know that when I first started posting, I got on the band wagon a bit, but I realised eventually it was a waste of time. I actually am interested in others’ opinions, and just attacking people was not making any difference. I also felt the sting of some of the personal insults that were thrown around. As such I resolved to try and take a more conciliatory tone. For the most part it has been worthwhile since even Visitor and I have exchanged what I consider constructive comments.
    As far as criticism goes, I have to say that the harshest and most brutal words I’ve ever heard about Hungarians have actually come from their own countrymen/women. (I was even somewhat surprised when Visitor said words to the effect that he had less of a problem with me than he did with many Hungarians.) One thing I do know though is that allowing ourselves to be baited so easily just makes us targets for more abuse. I read a great quote the other day, (incidentally, by a Hungarian, but the name escapes me now) that went something like “As long as we react predictably to things we like and don’t like, we will make it possible for others to manipulate us to their own ends.”

  101. John says:

    Tunde, when did Vasarhelyi mention executing Catholic priests? Could you send me the link, because I did not find anything to back up the claim.

  102. Tünde says:

    anon600ad: Yes people are trying to ban Stan, see above. Certainly not Eric, and yes he wants back and forth, not for any real dialogue, but to generate traffic, which is why I hate posting here. You are not the one I think targeted me, and you have misunderstood the insult part. The list you have used to describe my posts is unfair. I misread one post once that I remember but I don’t even understand your point there. That happens with many posters, regardless of language or origin. As far as misintepretation goes, you seem to have misinterpreted all I wrote above. I was replying to those who claim to want a dialogue, but wish to ban certain posters or simply attack other posters by insults or using false nicks. Yes I have been insulting, mainly because I was responding in kind, but I don’t post insults as a reply, and I really do not appreciate obscenities as a reply. Certain posters don’t even read what I write, but simply label me as racist or xenophobe (UJ) One or more persons posted in my name and then attacked me through different posters, and at least one of those seems to be Vándorló (see above). Registering would help that. Also I do not appreciate attempts to expose me or others (perhaps Eric could explain how someone has my full name). As far as expat superiority and my supposed feeling injured goes, my first post was to your defense of the World Bank to Visitor and as you well know, you wrote to Adrian something like “interesting to watch how Tünde gets bolder in her criticism of the World Bank” and you then posted to Adrian and not to me, on that and the expat subject, so I don’t think this post of yours, as with the expat post, is particularly honest.

    Re: On your post on alcoholism in the Hungarian police force. Yes it is bad. This in part due to the legacy of communism, which introduced heavy drinking in the military, police, border guards, in the party etc. Not only here, (Szolzsenyicin was one of the first to write on this) but everywhere, but it is my particularly theory that (ethnic) Hungarians got it worse because their genetic inability to absorb alcohol.

  103. Tünde says:

    John: Pócspetri – hatvan éve http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/cikk.php?cikk=148120

    Vándorló: I don’t know why you continue to insist that I wish only people who disagree with me to be able to post in only one name, or not post in my name, or that I always agree with the posters I defended.

    On the inability for longterm planning (Roma topic). Actually you also lack this ability. You promote a neoliberal ideology (drops in currencies are good for exports, tourism as an industry, outsourcing) which shows total inability to think long term, and seeing what happened to the Celtic Tiger’s economy, and its property market, I would think you would have seen some lessons there.

    A related article> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1054462/British-Army-enjoys-recruitment-boom-Irish-Republic-troops-leave-Northern-Ireland.html

  104. Tam says:

    Huh! Hungarians genetic inability to absorb alcohol? I thought such people get drunk less easily since their liver breaks down the alcohol before the body is able to absorb it.

  105. Visitor says:

    @John /It’s elvtárs_a_k with an a if you’re so concerned with spelling or commies although you don’t seem to know that Tamás is the son of one of the founders of the Rumanian Communist Party. He grew up as a Red Prince with privileges I doubt you can even imagine. An army of intimidated servants jumping to whatever he wanted them to jump to… One of his peers Nicu Ceausescu’s sexual experimentation as a teenager included killing a young girl that his Securitate body guards picked up for him after he declared that he wants her in his bed. Noone, not even the girls’ parents dared to breath a word in protest… And, just like the Vásárhelyi bitch’s papa, TGM père did things that would have embarassed Dracula (both historical and fictional) To make a long story short they are both typical CEU/SZDSZ sewage despite Tamás’ ‘good cop routine.’ Both Zionist entities crawl with them… As for the saintly Soros I am sure you’ve heard how he just gave our booming economy another boost http://tinyurl.com/dl3o2z

  106. Visitor says:

    @Viking /”No, Visitor, do not mix the cards” I am not ‘mixing the cards’ YOU are ignoring my answer as ususal because it’s not what you want to hear. I repeat: powerful people, people with almost unlimited financial, political and media power are not in the same league as the average Joe. In healthy (since ‘democratic’ has become such an obscene joke) societies the latter are more or less protected from the former. It’s called ‘civil rights.’ In a healthy society powerful public figures can’t even sue for libel because the powerful have too much power as it is, power that *corrupts.* In my example the Pócspetri demonstrators tried to exercise free speech, Vásárhelyi and Rákosi exercised power. In your example the radio station exercised power NOT free speech and they could only be convicted because they LOST their power. We must not equate, confuse or reverse the two categories and allow the Vásárhelyis of this world to regain the unlimited power they possessed in the 50’s. They are still too rich and too powerful as it is. ‘Hate speech’ is also a euphemism and it is more often than not TRUE which is why they try to suppress it. ‘Hate speech’ laws in fact always emphasize that it doesn’t matter if it’s true. Curious, isn’t it? ‘The same would then apply to your favourite Hungarian’ :-o Who is my favorite Hungarian? “So freedom was better in the 30’s?” *Life* was better in *Germany and the UK started to lose its grip on Hungary i. e. we were on our way out of the pits too. “Or maybe – freedom in Hungary today is like in Germany in the 30’s?” What freedom? The freedom to be exploited, homeless or freeze to death? Germany was *booming in the 30’s, nobody froze or starved. Now let’s talk about the Lapp… Why do you people treat them like they are not even human?

  107. Viking says:

    Visitor, so “Free Speech” is the right for the person without power to unpunished to say what he/she wants, without anyone could charge that person with libel etc?

    But if that person later becomes powerful, he/she should/could be punished for what he/she said after that point in time he/she came into power?

    OK, so Hitler in his early Beer-Hall meetings in Munich in the 20-ties, was just a typical example of someone using his right to “Free Speech”. But at the moment he became an important political player in end of the 20ties/beginning 30ties, he was suddenly responsible for what he was saying?

  108. anon says:

    I keep coming back hoping that the identity of the CEU prof eventually gets revealed. Will that happen?

  109. bertrand says:

    Godwin’s law. What a surprise.
    Thanks viking!

  110. Visitor says:

    @Друг Јосип /”The Racist’ label well-deserved” So what? is ‘racism,’ whatever you mean by it, bad? &, WHY? &, what is it to you anyway, are you black or something? What crock will you peddle next? That our immune system is evil or we shouldn’t have resisted the Ottoman Turks or Genghis Khan? You’re such a pervert Друг Јосип! It’s people like you that created this *Koyaanisqatsi (a. k. a. World of Shit) that we live in. Damn you. You’re also distorting everything Tünde writes the same way you distort our social reality, amit koholt vádaknak hívunk if you would even have bothered to learn Hungarian, and how long have you lived here? Such scorn, CONTEMPT. Where does it come from? Have you learned it from your ‘Jewish’ friends that brought you to Hungary to ‘teach us?’ You’re initials too, UJ. Doesn’t that stand for *Uncle Joe?* Will you explain how and why you chose this nick and when and why you started to abbreviate it? “I dont want to get into producing a C’est Moi style log of… comments,” Why not? Would it be redundant? Why are you people so busy collecting all this information on us? Two of you have already admitted stalking us and chavera Marianna I bet is busy forwarding our comments to ‘people that should see them’ too. What exactly are you planning to do with all this info? which item on Hápogó’s list is btw not true?

  111. Visitor says:

    @Marianna /”look up the case of Abner Louima” I have, and it’s fascinating! The NYPD had apparently had a long history of torture inserting night and broom sticks into prisoners’ anuses and then twisting and turning them until their bowels ripped or handcuffing people to chairs and water pipes and shocking them over and over again with stun guns until they had to be hospitalized (although I am sure that a bunch of them died and the cops just dumped their bodies in the South Bronx or Bed-Stuy)Just a month before the Louima affair a Polish immigrant was tortured the same way Louima was and he almost died. It only made the news in small print *after Louima’s plight became a cause célèbre with you people then it was quickly forgotten. *The human leash* that Lynndie baby holds in those sexy Abu Ghraib pictures http://tinyurl.com/c34fvg is standard equipment in US jails and prisons which is where they were procured for Abu Ghraib for the ex stateside prison guards who were put in Abu Ghraib precisely because they were experts of this sort of stuff. The School of the Americas trained torturers and death squads for ages without any scandal despite allusions to what went on there by the media. Isn’t that interesting? How and why were Louima or Abu Ghraib chosen when they were chosen for the shock and awe by the elders of the Cosmopolitan media would be another interesting study in propaganda and mass manipulation. “Also for the record, I do not go to CEU” Meaning that you’re not a *student there? Do you teach there? Do you work there in any capacity? What’s your role in the anti-“antisemitism” gig? How are you connected to the ADL, the US or Israeli Embassies? Are you an FBI agent? Do you work for any other US or Israeli government agency? What exactly are you doing in Hungary? You’re obviously not a tourist and you’re just as obviously very deceitful. Do you know who sent the original email? Did YOU send it? And so forth… :)

  112. UJ says:

    @Visitor – Get with the program. I’ve explained the name, the change and much of my background previously. Ask Ricsi or HP.
    Defn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism. Strange you should mention it, because I seemed to read recently something that Tunde had implied about (wrongly) your Magyar immune system. Redundant? Yes! I dont want to waste my time with her, since most intelligent people already recognised her racist nature independently. Moreover, she is really clueless on many things she writes about (biology, economics, govt).
    I’ve also explained that my scorn and contempt are for certain individuals (ahhh, those words, Germinator, you’re back!) As mentioned, it wasn’t my Jewish friends who brought me here. That was also another wrong assumption (Ah, Mr Truth). I told you ,it was your loyal compatriots who thought we could help some Hungarians avoid making the mistakes (& wrong assumptions) you and Tunde’s sort have been propagating.
    “Why are you people stalking us?”. Pray, tell us, since you seem to know so much about everything. Where am I from? Are you intelligent enough to put info together and reach the right conclusion? One of your compatriots did.

  113. Visitor says:

    @Vándorló /”most Roma are catholic [he doesn't even CAPITALIZE Catholic. How Freudian!] and by Christian principles alone, do you not have a duty to each other?” Says you, an atheist that hates the Church and knows Gypsies only from fairy tales. Which is as funny as it is dodgy. Par for the course for you, I guess…
    @Viking /It’s what Hitler DID or did not do that matters. Or what _anyone DOES, like bomb schools or use octogenarians for atavistic, Aztec style human sacrifices while they shine you on with ‘progressive speech’ Sticks and stones? why did you btw need a Rwandan radio, RTLM, for your ‘hate speech’ example? Wouldn’t Tilos Radio’s Christmas Eve announcement that all Christians should be exterminated been good enough? Which reminds me. Do you think *Lapps* and Gypsies are similar? Do you Scans really feed them to your sled dogs?

  114. Teann Trom says:

    @Visitor: Catholic with a small ‘c’ or capital ‘C’? Well, if you were a real C/catholic you would know the difference yourself. Only for prescriptive purposes it it with a capital. The Catholic church’s version of the Nicene Creed, the central tenet of faith, is with a small ‘c’ (“In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”) and has been so since 1975. In the latest version, still under discussion, it is still spelt with a small ‘c’ (http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/OrdoMissaeWhiteBook.pdf ).
    About all the other bollix, I’m still wondering if I can be bothered. In brief it’s clear you know fuck all about fuck all.

  115. @Visitor: So when you said 93% had left Ireland, you didn’t actually mean leave in the physical sense, you meant in in the figurative sense as in lost from Ireland? Whichever way it’s hard to explain where all these people are.
    First I’ll start by answering for you the question you couldn’t understand, because – as I have said and demonstrated repeatedly – you know fuck all about fuck all. So, ‘which Ireland are you referring to?’ The answer for you (and for Tünde, too) is DeValera’s Ireland.
    Now, let me just repeat something you and Tünde seem to have problems understanding, perhaps due to the complicated syntactic and semantic structure of the phrase in which I stated it: “I am not Irish”. Let me break that down for you both, so you can understand it: “I (that is ‘me’ the person writing this) ¬ Irish”, or putting it another way “I ≠ Irish”. Or more logically, ¬((∃x∈S:φ(x))→ (∀x∈S:φ(x))), meaning “It is not the case that if there exists any x in the set S so that a property φ is true for x, then for all x in S the property φ must be true.” Do you and Tünde get it now?
    Having established that, you do understand that having been born and raised in England (yes, not Scotland or Wales, even) anything I say on this issue should not be taken as authoritative.
    OK, so I should have written my statement to you in Irish? Why? What does it matter, if in any language you are shown to be spouting bollocks? In the last census of Ireland only around 2 million people reported knowing Irish, of these roughly 90,000 people speak it everyday in their normal day to day lives. Should there be more, well probably, it has remained the official language of Ireland, along with English for 80 odd years. Back when Mary Robinson became the seventh President of Ireland she embarrassed quite a few MPs into learning the language, but the efforts are still struggling. But do the people want it? Half and half, at best. In 2005 the Dingle was officially remained “An Daingean” with full legal weight. This caused outrage for a number of reasons 1. It ignored the English speakers 2. It annoyed those with businesses in the area that could be affected 3. Only 1,500 people in the area speak Irish 4. It was enacted by the grandson of DeValera 5. The area already used an Irish name alongside the English and this was itself different (‘Daingean Uí Chúis’).
    After a long battle this act has been changed to take into account local opinion – which in all cases means English is still to be used too

  116. Visitor says:

    @Pestiside Stalin /”I’ve explained the name, the change and much of my background previously…” Bullshit. “As mentioned, it wasn’t my Jewish friends who brought me here” Of course not. An airplane brought you here. Your Jewish friends, one of whom had to flee Hungary I wonder why, just ‘welcomed you.’ (‘We were warmly welcomed in Hungary by a Hungarian Jew, and by another Hungarian who my ex-boss gave sanctuary to, when he fled Hungary’) How and by whom were you recruited though? Some Lendvai or Vásárhelyi type I bet. “Defn: /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism” All those top notch ‘external, peer and student reviews’ and you give us a Wikipedia link? You must be CEU. At any rate, black Africans, as I have already written a few times, are obviously inferior to white Europeans (or prove me wrong by listing black African achievements in science or major black-African contribution to human civilization)FOR WHATEVER REASON. I don’t care if it’s race or not race. They are a burden on our society that we can ill afford. “I told you ,it was your loyal compatriots” The one that had to flee Hungary? “who thought we could help some Hungarians avoid making the mistakes (& wrong assumptions) you and Tunde’s sort have been propagating” Another Soros inspired saint… God help us. I know what you and your sponsors have on your minds,Јосип and we need your ‘help’ like we need bird flu. “‘Why are you people stalking us?’. Don’t you think we have reason to worry? (& there is not even ‘we’ just a few unbrainwashed individuals who think for themselves and are fed up with your trash, ‘we’ takes money which is what you people have) after all, people don’t go to prison or get their lives destroyed for ‘Trianon denial’ are they? Your gig on the other hand is quite lucrative, isn’t it? What’s the going rate for A++ brain washers these days? “Pray, tell us, since you seem to know so much about everything. Where am I from? Are you intelligent enough to put info together and reach the right conclusion? One of your compatriots did.” Are you ‘answering’ a question with a question, Друг Јосип? Wow!:))’One of my compatriots?’ Such as myself? How many more times should I tell you where you are from? Did you forget? All those high flying reviews and you can’t even remember where you are from… How sad.

  117. Álmos says:

    Dear Mr Visitor, Well I must say, well done!! Your the Master!

  118. UJ says:

    @Visitor – Thanks. I’m glad you agree with me.

  119. anon600ad says:

    Tunde: thanks for your post. This post is in response and as before is not written to be antagonistic, but rather, as neutral as possible. I hope to make a conclusion at the end if I have time.
    I went back through the previous streams and found the comment you referred to:
    I have also watched with interest as Tunde has become more and more bold in her criticism of the use of selective data to prove a desired point; calling it ‘lying’. Firstly, this had nothing to do with the world bank, and secondly, was addressed to the conversation in general; not any one person.
    As far as the list of things that I gave in my post regarding misinterpretation, misreading and labelling. It seemed to me that you had misunderstood my position on the world bank since although I had posted clearly my own generally low opinion of it, you had called me a ‘world bank apologist’, which I must admit I found kind of insulting. Please refer to these passages that I posted.
    “In fact, had Tunde read my posts properly, she would have seen that my usage of the WBER was more of a postscript, saying that although things had been a mess, that the government at the time was making a concerted effort to avoid bankruptcy for the sake of future trade. That article was only ONE of many articles I read on this subject, with my own view being a synthesis of many articles including a series of primary documents including the actual Treaty of Trianon text.”
    …and…
    I am also extremely critical of the way project reviews are ‘constructed’ so that even if the project failed in its main goals, it can still be regarded as a success with some interesting turn of phrase and a bit of creative use of the facts. I am pragmatic though. Love it or hate it, the world bank is here…and as I said, it is just another really big institution with all of the inherent problems of such. It is not a sentient being of its own. Generally speaking, I have a very low opinion of any organisation that does business in money. I agree what has happened in many countries as a result of world bank policies is (or at least should be) criminal. I repeat again though. The world bank is here. By all means, broadcast its failings, but I suggest that you do it in a way that is most likely to be heard.
    (cont)

  120. anon600ad says:

    I also remember that you incorrectly assumed the origin and purpose of my research as well as the source of the funding for it. You have also incorrectly assumed my nationality and political pursuasion. I also noted with interest your attack on my professional integrity as a researcher based on my use of personal examples in a pestiside forum. To be honest, I can’t see what one has to do with the other anyway, but to provide some more information, I am a qualitative researcher, not quantitative. This means that I deal in depth with a smaller number of individuals rather than large statistical samples. My field is mental health and government policy; my background being predominantly in sociology, although it also includes some psychology and a large slice of cognitive development theory from an education context.
    Finally, my posting to Adrian directly really came about because I came to a sense that you had already decided what and who you thought I was, and that you had no interest in actually communicating with me as an equal. As I said before, the quote you mentioned was not actually posted directly to Adrian at all, but to the general audience. I thought this failure to communicate was unfortunate, especially since my first impression of you had been positive.
    I didn’t really understand this sentence in your post:
    “Yes I have been insulting, mainly because I was responding in kind, but I don’t post insults as a reply, and I really do not appreciate obscenities as a reply.”
    Not to be a smartarse, but it does seem to be contradictory. In any case, I agree with you that obscenities and insults do nothing to increase communication and understanding.
    I’d really much rather have a ‘civilised’ discussion with you, and am more than happy to adapt my way of thinking if I should feel that it is no longer appropriate.
    I accept your point that others have talked about banning Stan, which I think would be the wrong move. Free speech should be for everyone, not just for those we agree with.
    I can’t really comment on why it is that alcohol consumption is so bad in the Hungarian Police force(you’re quite probably correct), other than that Hungary is not alone there.Alcohol abuse is rife in many police forces; often due to the culture of ‘strength’ and the tendency to cover distress, as well as the negative effect that police work has on families etc.
    All the best for Easter. I hope we can have an ongoing improvement in our communications in the future.

  121. UJ says:

    @Visitor. I have no answer to your post. Are you talking to me, or frolicking in the puddle of “bullshit” that you were born in?
    a. I’m black (wrong)
    b. A jew invited me here (wrong)
    c. My friend fled Hungary (wrong)
    d. I have a sponsor(wrong)
    e. I came by plane or work for CEU (wrong)

    Gosh, five strikes less than in half a paragraph, (not to mention 15 grammatical mistakes) I can’t go on debating a milk-livered ‘indentured servant’. Only the semi-literate HP thinks you are the master. Maybe that is Hungary’s problem. The blind leading the stupid (or perhaps, more accurately, the stupid leading the blind)
    Let’s go ……real……slow, now and maybe we might get somewhere. Try not to trip over your keyboard, drool over your bib, or pee in your diaper….
    Where am I from? Hint – we have less resources than Hungary, but don’t think you have anything we want (that includes land). Your compatriot was not really like you – he had a functioning brain. Sayonara.

  122. anon600ad says:

    I just want to make some editing corrections to my previous post.
    There should be quotation marks around the following sentences:
    “I have also watched with interest as Tunde has become more and more bold in her criticism of the use of selective data to prove a desired point; calling it ‘lying’.”
    …and…
    “I am also extremely critical of the way project reviews are ‘constructed’ so that even if the project failed in its main goals, it can still be regarded as a success with some interesting turn of phrase and a bit of creative use of the facts. I am pragmatic though. Love it or hate it, the world bank is here…and as I said, it is just another really big institution with all of the inherent problems of such. It is not a sentient being of its own. Generally speaking, I have a very low opinion of any organisation that does business in money. I agree what has happened in many countries as a result of world bank policies is (or at least should be) criminal. I repeat again though. The world bank is here. By all means, broadcast its failings, but I suggest that you do it in a way that is most likely to be heard.”
    My apologies for that. I had tried to post an earlier version but lost it into the ether, meaning I had to retype it. By the time I finished it, I was so tired I could barely see.
    There was also one other thing I wanted to point out. I remember you saying something to the effect that you do not necessarily share the views of some of the other posters from ‘your side’. (for want of a better term) I fully recognise this, and would like to say that it is the same on this side of the fence, that is, that I don’t necessarily agree with the full extent of what other expats say, as I’m sure they don’t always agree with me. I know that Vandorlo and Adrian/Sophist don’t always agree with me. Such is their right. It doesn’t stop us from interacting with each other though.
    Finally, on Eric’s original topic of the CEU prof. It occurred to me that this person must have known they were communicating with the media in one of its various forms, so the expectation of anonymity is kind of low. As such, I think if Eric did publish their name, it would be within his rights.

  123. @UJ: The ‘blind leading the blind’ pretty much sums it up and if Visitor, HP and Tünde knew their bible, which I’m sure they don’t, being ignorant in all things they profess to understand, they would know this is Matthew 15:14 “Hagyjátok õket; vakoknak vak vezetõi õk: ha pedig vak vezeti a vakot, mind a ketten a verembe esnek.” (‘Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.’).

    Yes, let them alone, wouldn’t that be just retribution. The more colloquial Hungarian expression has a nice play on the variations for expressing being blind: “vak vezet világtalant” Literally, ‘the blind leading those without a world’ – though obviously ‘világtalan’ is never normally translated literally and just means sightless, blind…

    Think I’m going go back to taking Tünde’s arguments apart again. So, Tünde, the level of alcoholism in Hungary is due to genetic roots? You have an excuse for everything don’t you, a real born whinger. No, it doesn’t have genetic roots, did you just pull that out of your arse thinking Visitor’s example was one to follow?

    The gene responsible for alcohol intolerance in found in Russians, but is largely absent from Hungarians who are 87% European genetically. In those populations that cannot absorb alcohol this is typically due to the lack of an enzyme that helps. This lack of the enzyme low-Km aldehyde dehydrogenase isoenzyme, or in short, ADH is present in about 50% of Asians too.

    When these people drink alcohol they very quickly go red and blush due to its powerful affect on them. They also feel sick and nautious. Normally this behaviour is only seen in Hungarians when they start to talk about economics or finance.

  124. Stan says:

    lelkiismeretfurdalás (vandorlo),
    Why don’t you post under your own name: “Pikey”?

  125. C'est moi says:

    Although I agree with your sentiment I found the translation of the word by Sztaki quite funny. It translates lelkiismeretfurdalás as “pricks of conscience”…too funny

  126. @Stan: See comment #94.

  127. Lucht siúil says:

    @Stan: Would have been funnier if you had used the endonym (‘Lucht siúil’) rather than the exonym.

  128. UJ says:

    @Légió – Ditto C’est Moi’s comment.

  129. Vándorló says:

    @UJ and C’est moi: Yes, I think that even beats ‘Crap served in its own sauce’ (quite common on Hungarian menus as a misspelling of ‘carp’).

  130. Visitor says:

    @Boimbealóir /” if you were a real C/catholic” :)) Like spelling decides it… What a snow job! Are you or are you not an atheist? Do you now or have you ever had any GYPSY friends or acquaintances? Are these the questions that you didn’t want to answer? “you know fuck all about fuck all” Another salvo of obscenities… (sigh) This kid is not well…

  131. Kuga Sorta says:

    @Visitor: No, I’m not an atheist, an agnostic with a mix of pantheism – like all decent Finno-Ugric people believe, too. Having studied Mari (cseremisz) I’m quite taken with Kuga Sorta (“Big Candle”), a Finno-Ugric faith, people living chiefly in Mari-El republic Russia.
    Gypsy friends, yes. Here and the UK. I have never had them try to steal from me either, but I have known 3 highly qualified Hungarians who all tried it and lived to regret it. But they were trying big, white-collar crime (real money) and though the dumb foreigner didn’t understand Hungarian.
    As it happens, just got back in touch with a friend who also spent a year here and she is now making sure other minorities get equal access to education and resources.
    By the way, Trinity College Dublin makes sure 15% of places are given to disadvantaged groups. Would be good to see that here too.
    And just for the record, I was always top in religion right up until the final day of the exam and I didn’t write a single word, because I didn’t believe the bollocks – but I know I still know your religion and faith far, far better than you ever will.
    YOu can’t be a Catholic unless you’re a catholic.

  132. Visitor says:

    @Cábúnach /I _know you’re worthless… “So when you said 93%…” &, you comment on the wrong board, DIPSHIT! “I (that is ‘me’ the person writing this) ¬ Irish”, or putting it another way “I ≠ Irish”. Or more logically, ¬((∃x∈S:φ(x))→ (∀x∈S:φ(x))), meaning “It is not the case that if there exists any x in the set S so that a property φ is true for x, then for all x in S the property φ must be true.” Aw jeez, he’s losing his marbles again… The question, as I recall, was ‘what you *are’* (although, I could guess… an uncle Tom? Suffering from the Mother of Stockholm syndromes? ) NOT what you ain’t, Vándorpaci. (Is dócha nach bhfuil seans ar bith ann?) “anything I say on this issue should not be taken as authoritative” :))) Like it ever occurred to us… This, I mean *that thread reminds me of Dame Mogen’s hilarious tirade about us evil Hungarians ‘Magyarizing’ our neighbors which beats the hell out of even Dr. Ki’s complaints about football hooligans and violence in Ulster.

  133. Vándorló says:

    Just want to make it clear that I absolutely love this country, its people (most of them) and the language.
    My responses are all open an honest, based on direct experience and in the accusations of fraud and theft can all be backup up by numerous records (excepting the cases where the perpetrator and I signed a non disclosure agreement as part of their financial settlement with me).
    I have the same problems that Hungarians have, the same things annoy me that annoy Hungarians about Hungarians.
    If any of this sounds appalling and really negative I apologise, but unfortunately it’s true. This place can sometimes be a hard place to be.
    I only have a problem with ill informed, ill-educated, bigoted verbal puss-bags like Visitor and Tünde.

    n.b. I can’t be bothered tracking discussion threads, you can do that for me.
    Question for you: Since you are from the US and have allegiance to the US only as you state, aren’t you just another unwelcome first/second generation minority sticking your nose in on other people’s business? Are you Hungarian in any way? Do you pay Hungarian taxes?

    p.s. Tünde, to answer a question you asked a long time ago about what I do here and how I earn money, the answer is simple. 80% of my money comes from abroad but I pay taxes here. I never work for anyone who wants the work ‘off the books’ – unlike every Hungarian I know. I generate wealth and money for this country and when I do earn money here is is normally re-translating or correcting other people’s crappy work in semi-literate English – which is a job that I have found very few Hungarians capable of doing well enough, unless they are dual language or live abroad.

  134. Vandal says:

    Vanderlo you must mix with many criminals.
    You exaggerate when you say “unlike every Hungarian I know” you must be working with corrupt people and this means you are one of them the corrupt ones! if you are attracting these type of people around you, just a innocent observation :-))

  135. Vándorló says:

    @Vandal: The full statement was regarding tax evasion/avoidance: “I never work for anyone who wants the work ‘off the books’ – unlike every Hungarian I know.”
    Unlike you I do not consider this criminal behaviour in this country as the system itself is overtly corrupt and clearly geared to extracting tax disproportionately from those with less power.
    The criminal behaviour I was referring to was outright theft, fraud, embezzlement, deception… These criminals have been a headteacher, a lawyer (well two), real estate agents (no surprise there), government official (who also represents this country in the EU). I don’t knowingly mix with criminals I simply try to live and do business here.
    Balanced against this I have over the years received unbelievable and unconditional support from tons of people that really would have been better off had they not got involved. These have included employees of APEH and the illetékhivatala, too – as well as other lawyers, accountants and officials – and lots of friends.
    So, your deliberate misunderstanding of my statement again boils down to a variations on the association fallacy, namely ¬((∃x∈S:φ(x))→ (∀x∈S:φ(x)))

  136. Curious George says:

    @Vandal – I do not know of any Hungarian who drives who has not paid off a policeman for a traffic offence. Are they criminals? In most countries, bribery is a serious crime.

  137. Vandal says:

    I think due to wages being so low for our police force there will be corruption. I agree! I hope one day the people do change there ways..

  138. Curious George says:

    @Vandal – I’m curious, mate! Did you just agree that they are criminals? Or that bribery is ingrained in Hungarian society?

  139. Vandal says:

    Bribery is ingrained anywhere there is a low paid Police force, anywhere!

  140. Curious George says:

    @Vandal – G’day mate! Or should I say Jo napot. You seem to have misunderstood the question. I was talking about the people and not the police.
    Do you consider the people criminals when they bribe a policeman for a traffic offense?
    If no, is it okay for an expat to act in the same way as Hungarians?

  141. Vandal says:

    Well it’s a criminal act yes, so whats your point? You cant box in your experience on a whole nation because your circle of friends appear to be corrupt, so all ir appears to me is that you have a very corrupt group of friends. So I suggest shed your cocoon and fly away little butterfly…

  142. Curious George says:

    @Vandal – You might like to look into your black book. You may have no friends if you dont know anyone who has paid a bribe for a traffic offense in Hungary. Oh wait, what black book – You’re still searching for your Sheila.

  143. Stan says:

    Traffic laws (most of them) make sense, why would anyone violate them?

  144. Visitor says:

    @Cerharo gadjo /”Kuga Sorta” Golly, gee whiz Gadjo dilo you be so cooooooool! Unfortunately, faith is not a college course or fashion statement that you seem to confuse it with. “Gypsy friends, yes” Chances are you’re confabulating again but let’s say you ain’t. GYPSY to a Hungarian isn’t some Michael Caine type British Gyppo or some Romungro like Orbán. By GYPSY I mean tyo shero pharravena, vi tya romnya nashavena romenge. The kind nightmares http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/31/books/no-country-for-the-old.html are made of http://www.newsweek.com/id/97522 “I have never had them try to steal from me either, but I have known 3 highly qualified Hungarian… all… lived to regret it” Why, what did you do to them? Are they still in your freezer? The noble non-white vs. evil white production code/cliché/stereotype btw doesn’t even work as a joke any more. “I was always top in religion right up until the final day of the exam and I didn’t write a single word, because I didn’t believe the bollocks” But you appeal to Tunde’s Catholic faith (and we don’t even know if she’s Catholic, do we) Isn’t that kind of dishonest and manipulative? “but I know I still know your religion and faith far, far better than you ever will” Is there ANYTHING you don’t know better than anyone, you pompous ass? How about the winning lotto numbers for the rest of the year? Would you mind sharing them with us? “Légió a nevem, mert sokan vagyunk” HATAN, hogy egész pontosak legyünk… As for your next post “ill informed, ill-educated, bigoted verbal puss-bags… I can’t be bothered tracking discussion threads… Since you are from the US and have allegiance to the US only as you state, etc.” I can’t even tell whom your tirade is addressed to. So, I just hope you’re in a safe place by now. Gadjo dilo. Vándor[virslijelölt].O kindo grast…

  145. Visitor says:

    @Ustadh Stalin /”Visitor – Thanks. I’m glad you agree with me… Are you talking to me, or frolicking in the puddle of bullshit that you were born in? …milk-livered indentured servant, etc.” Kind of incoherent, isn’t it… Are you going bat shit crazy on us too or were you just plastered again, BeerBarrel?(&, what would your Baba say to that?) “I have no answer to your post” What else is new. Let me try and answer yours anyway since a. I didn’t say you are black, b. I didn’t say a Jew invited you to Hungary, I merely said they welcomed you as you yourself wrote in a comment that I cut from Politics.hu and pasted above. c) again, you yourself wrote that your ex-boss gave sanctuary to one of the people that welcomed you when he fled Hungary. d. once more, it was you who wrote with mind boggling arrogance a. k. a. chutzpa that my ‘loyal compatriots who thought [you] could help some Hungarians avoid making the mistakes (& wrong assumptions) [my] and Tunde’s sort have been propagating.’ How dare you lecture us? How dare you tell us how we should think and live when you can’t even learn our language? To summarize, ABC & D add up to 4 new lies and distortions plus a shopworn dig ‘(not to mention 15 grammatical mistakes)’ older than the road. “Where am I from?” Look, if you can’t remember just go anywhere, as long as you get the hell out of Hungary, OK?

  146. Legion says:

    Visitor: Thanks for the statements of the obvious. I’ve already made it clear I know far more about the Romany cultures in UK, Ireland and Hungary than you, so I would stop there before you dig yourself another hole you can’t get out of.
    Thanks also for the statements of the obvious on religion and faith. Obviously I was being sarcastic in response to your question, but the serious issue still stands. Do you believe in and follow the Nicene Creed? If not you have no faith that you profess to follow. In yet another way you are declaring yourself impotent – first mentally, now spiritually.
    Tünde in response to a remark about Soros noted that in a previous year a conference had been held over Easter on a date that ‘was important to our faith’ or words to that effect. She at least identifies herself with the New Testament in whichever flavour.
    Oh, and Tünde while we are dealing with that, who else apart from Soros has actually poured money back into Hungary? In the early 90’s he sent lists of library books and computing equipment to most schools, all they had to do was tick the boxes and they got the stuff. Which of the other Hungarian millionaires/billionaires has even bothered to do stuff like that? And just for the record I was in Madrid on my way to work in Lisbon when Soros broke the pound and it hurt me too, but as a Hungarian that profited your only problem seems to be that he isn’t as stupid as you would like him to be. You just want communism, big government and state control all over everyone, so you and your cronies can cream off what they want and tell the dumb, obedience and lazy masses what is good for them.
    But yes Visitor, you were born in the US, claim allegiance to the US ‘first and foremost’ don’t you. You what’s this Stalinist style inferiority complex of pretending you are more Hungarian than the Hungarians. Which comes first? Hungary or the US? Where do you pay taxes and live Hungary or the US? Be honest now.

  147. UJ says:

    @Visidiot – not as incoherent as your babbling. Btw, I dont drink beer, even if I didn’t reply to your earlier posts on that point. Beerbarrel, Stalin,….whatever. You might want to stop suckling those palinka filled titties and pay attention. Ha, ha, bet it’s not the first time a teacher told you that.
    You said & implied everything I highlighted in (a-e) including the infantile remark about a plane. You really need to check your ALL your previous posts, and your doctor. The dementia seems to be setting in.
    The mistakes you and your beloved Tunde have been propagating are plain for all to see on these posts. The physical evidence of that moronic mentality is evident around us in Hungary, even among Hungarians.
    How dare I lecture you? I dare, because I don’t fear cowardly, ignorant bigots. 4 new lies? Why? Just because you cant remember what you wrote? I dont think so.
    Are you really an American, or just visiting America? Don’t you really want me to leave because you or your parents once ran away when the going got tough?
    Oh, the language bit? Haven’t got down to it yet. Still battling morons like you. You’ve obviously been searching for my posts. Now, spend some time to try to understand them.
    Where am I from, you inbred fuckhead? Your double helix evidently doesn’t include an ‘intelligence’ component to figure out anything. It says a lot about the composition of the two individual strands.

  148. UJ says:

    Correction – should have read “The physical evidence of that moronic mentality is evident around us in Hungary, even identifiable by Hungarians” not “among Hungarians”.

  149. Foinavon says:

    Marianna. Is that Marianna Faithfull? So often, people like you criticise Hungary and Hungarians without producing factual evidence. You just get the paint brush out and ‘slosh’ the canvas with contrived statistics, hearsay, and, cant.
    Then, not satisfied with berating the nasty, magyar, ‘miscreants’. You go on to compare them with the big-bad-wolf, Balkan countries.
    Racism does exist everywhere. But, please, give us a break. And let us try and get out of the current mess, without adding to the list with your whining, holier-than-thou, nonsense.

  150. Barbie says:

    @Legion
    “Do you believe in and follow the Nicene Creed?”
    So were you there? Legion? This event has so many versions you wouldn’t no where to begin to search the truth.. 9/11 has happened only the last sveral years and look how many versions there are! and you are trying to use an example over 1500 hundred years ago? Get real!

  151. Légió says:

    @Barbie/HP: As Visitor expressed it: “…faith is not a college course or fashion statement”. It is simple, the way the Catholic church has always worked is that there is one truth and it is their version. You have to believe what you are told by the head poncho, ‘cos he has a direct line to God Almighty. No really, that is what you are supposed to believe. So when he (because women are inherently evil in Catholicism following the temptation and the Fall from grace) says something, you believe. You’re not meant to switch your brain on, because there is one truth and it is their truth. There is no versions, interpreting and any of that nonsense.
    But Barbie, you are obviously a really pig sick dumb ass. The Nicene Creed is given to us in writing, so you don’t have to have ‘been there’ to believe it, you just read the thing and follow it and talk to your priest about it when you go to confession and ask forgiveness and show contrition for SALIGIA (superbia, avaritia, luxuria, invidia, gula, ira, acedia) and not accepting your brother as your equal before God Almighty.
    Anything else and you are not a Catholic, it’s that simple, you are practising another faith, maybe a Christian one, maybe not. You also risk excommunicated for heresy. But as you are obviously feeble minded, you already have a get-out clause.
    And for normal people 9/11 isn’t that complicated, only for the Stans of this world who want to believe any vague conspiracy theory that can link it to one of their pet hates.
    p.s. Can anyone explain to me why Eve gets the rap for original sin in Catholicism when when wasn’t even created when God told Adam not to eat the fruit in Eden? Read the Pentateuch closely and check for yourself. Adam created Genesis 2:7, creates tree of knowledge genesis 2:9, Adam told not to eat the fruit Genesis 2:17, Eve created Genesis 2:22, eat the fruit Genesis 3:6. OK, so Eve and the serpent discuss the merits or not of fruit eating before 3.6, but hardly seems fair, Adam ate the fruit in full knowledge and a direct warning from God. I’ve never met a religious scholar who can adequately explain that to me. Visitor, HP, Tünde… here’s your chance to really show us how deep your faith is and your understanding.

  152. Tünde says:

    anon600ad: It would help if you explained what your point is. You seem to be trying to settle some past points, and to portray me as a pot calling the kettle black. You have once again misunderstood, misinterpreted my points above. Responses to the CEU prof thing were: basically, yes they agree with that version of free speech, and the solution is to ban certain posters writing what they consider hate speech. I wrote back that I do not agree with their version of free speech, but to agree that there is a need for a moderator. My examples were obscenities, insults without a point, exposure of posters, and posting in others names. Someone (possibly Vándorló) wrote a post in my name, then linked it to Geert Wilders. Even after you agreed earlier there is no need for ad hominem attacks, you wrote back that I “also insult, and misunderstand and misinterpret”. Pardon?

    “I didn’t really understand this sentence in your post: >”Yes I have been insulting, mainly because I was responding in kind, but I don’t post insults as a reply, and I really do not appreciate obscenities as a reply.”<
    I wrote that to your writing: “My comment about moving on was more to highlight the futility of complaining about someone having insulted you, while doing everything you can to hurt them in return.” and in your last post

    Again, I do not ordinarily post insults to people as a reply alone. And I would point out here that my first (rather mild, non insulting) posts here were answered with insults (Vándorló). Again, I was not complaining that people were insulting me, (although there are degrees of insults) I was complaining about people are using obscenities and insults ONLY, no argument whatsoever, to attack me and others, which is a waste of time and destroys any debate. Also, again, that someone was trying to expose my and others identity and are posting under different names, and using my name to post to others. I do not understand how you can see this as acceptable, or that my “giving in kind” is similar to these tactics, or that this is my being “hurt”. There are people and organisations, like the Nácivadász Szövetség will use tactics to destroy someone’s character and even contact their place of work. Your posts are PC, mine are not. You can always go home. This is my home, which is why when someone accessed my email and then did a search for me on the internet, and started to try expose me on the site, this “bothered” me.

  153. Tünde says:

    anon600ad: My first post on this site was addressed to you. You chose not to reply to me or Visitor, but to address our points to others. I continued to respond although you continued to address your posts to Adrian, (same in the expat debate), so telling me that you didn’t reply because you say I made up mind and refused to have a debate, or communicate is dodgy. I am one of the few on this very site who bothers with a real reply. If I remember well, you told Adrian not to bother to respond to me either, because he complained I was “extending his views”, as he did to mine. And it wasn’t that you said I was bold in my criticism that was annoying, more that you said this and from your posts that I read it was clear that you really didn’t know much about the World Bank or the IMF. At least Adrian bothered to read the Robin Broad assessment. I had not read all of your earlier posts (I made it clear that I had just found the site) but quoting the World Bank”s own website as proof of their objectivity in research is apologetic, and writing something like “we just have to live with it”, arguing with Visitor and with me on it, if you now say you have a low opinion of the organisation is puzzling. And that thread was then a waste of time. I do not remember assuming your origin or political persuasion. I didn’t find that thread, (although my search came up with D’Amato’s cv. http://www.pestiside.hu/20040815/pestiside-staff-erik-damato/ Too bad he didn’t contribute to the topic, he actually could be a true WB apologist. And I now think he does understand mass media control.) so I will have to rely on my memory. I thought you wrote you were from the UK (please correct) and that you were involved in law enforcement. You said you are working on research on migration. I did not assume it was funded by the World Bank, I said your approach to the expat topic, especially as you must have some expertise in it, was similar to WB tactics. If you really think this is that important now, please cut, paste and correct.
    We could continue this “he said, she said”, if you tell me the point, or why you compare me to the cyber terrorists. And I don’t understand why you believe the CEU prof should be exposed. Although I do not understand why he feels he needs to remain anonymous, since his views are PC and standard, He wrote to D’Amato separately and D’Amato to abuse that. The topic he raised, particularly what liberalism and tolerance was far more interesting than the person.

  154. Tünde says:

    Erik: I read the following on Mike Morgan’s excellent site on how Goldman Sachs http://www.goldmansachs666.com/. He writes his blog alone, and has no ads or any income from it:

    “Content: Please do not submit comments or information with any profanities or those that are purely malicious attacks or commentary.” and

    “I also need a volunteer to screen and decide on comments we receive. This is relatively easy, with a basic quick read to make sure there is nothing offensive, no profanity and the comment is legitimate. Then it is nothing more than hitting the button to Publish or Reject.”

    Of course, Morgan has morals, but still, sounds easy to me. So why it is difficult for Pesticide, a for-profit site to do the same? Particularly because Pesticide (unfortunately) uses some sort of software that seems very good, because Pesticide or Politics.hu comments are all over the Internet.

  155. Vándorló says:

    @Tünde: Just to make this really, really clear for you and to repeat once again everything that I have already stated at least 3 times either directly or indirectly:
    1. I have just looked up who Geert Wilders is, believe it or not there are some things I don’t know. I didn’t post as you linking anything to anyone. As I support Turkey’s accession I should have known, but thanks for spurring future (personal) research.
    2. I don’t give a shit who you are, just what you are – a xenophobic, racist, antisemitic, antediluvian, communist termagant (translated into colloquial English: ‘vacuous moaning whinge-bag’).
    3. You consider what Stan, Germinator/Visitor, HP, Ricsi write to be coherent and cogent arguments, yet what I write not. SPeaks for itself.
    4. A long time ago you said you only came to Politics.hu and Pestiside.hu for ‘research purposes’. That obviously isn’t true either as you don’t interfere with the thing you are researching.
    The rest of what you write is your standard harridan nonsense, but you are at least consistent and vaguely cogent.
    You going to answer the questions about your racism and genetic theories now?

  156. Tünde says:

    Vándorló: You are a nasty piece of work. Ok you didn’t link Wilders, but your tactics in posting are in all other ways dishonest. I was wrong to write you were Irish, I should have written I can’t believe your father is Irish. On one of my first posts to you I wrote that I assume you were from the UK and English. I find the story of the big Catholic family a bit hard to believe for someone so miserable, but I’ll take your word for it. CEU tolerance: What does it matter my personal beliefs? As Visitor pointed out, you don’t know them. I am not, in fact Catholic, but why do I have to be Catholic to point out how very tolerant (liberal) of the CEU to have its Anti-semitism conference on Easter Sunday and Monday, in a region where this holiday is very important. Re: Soros’s benevolence. Big deal. Those are his tactics. I believed them myself, at first, when I praised him years ago to my friend who was living in London at the time Soros ran against the pound. Like my friend says, it is never his own money anyway, but anyway, just like his antiwar campaign, while he was war profiteer, and buying shares in Haliburton, he has no moral agenda. If you were capable of critical reading, I would suggest TénySoros, a propaganda book published to prove what a saint he is. Soros depends on people like you, uncritical, and fools.
    Re: what you do here. I said that I doubt it was an added skill for this country. You said you were a computer programmer. I said that interesting that a friend of mine, a computer programmer, is working in Italy because he and his classmates can’t get jobs at home. (Wonder what your job prospects would be right now in the UK). Re: your English editing. Big deal. English here used to be far better before 1989. The Hungarian Quarterly, for one, was excellent, and many Corvina publications as well. But then Hungary’s economy wasn’t global, and now we have to translate every piece of crap into anglosperanto in order to go begging to multinationals and the EU, and for tourists to come and add to another unsustainable economy. Tourists, met one yesterday. A hugely muscled Brit, the kind that roam here in packs, asked me where he could find an Irish Pub here yesterday. Typical. Come to Hungary to go to an Irish Pub.
    You pay taxes here. Again, big deal. That would be the bare minimum.

  157. Tünde says:

    V cont. Many Hungarians do get the asian flush, but that wasn’t what I was talking about. And guess what, the Russian genetic tendency to alcoholism is linked to the Mongol invasion there. And no it wasn’t genetics alone that made Hungarians massive alcoholics, it was, in most part, the Bolsheviks, but genetics are involved.
    Gypsies. Hungary has done far more, both before 1989 and following, than any other country in the region with a large gypsy population, so don’t spread your mis- and disinformation about on this. Gypsy schoolchildren are given, not legally codified positive discrimination daily, as well as (unlike Hungarians) scholarships and free language and computer skills courses and free dormitory housing. And it is impossible to flunk them from school. They don’t need positive discrimination in schools, they need special attention, and in various regions really basic lessons in reading, writing and hygiene. They have an elite. They need is basic eduction and jobs.
    “A long time ago you said you only came to Politics.hu and Pestiside.hu for ‘research purposes’. That obviously isn’t true either as you don’t interfere with the thing you are researching.” I would ask what you are talking about, but I really couldn’t care.
    “Just want to make it clear that I absolutely love this country, its people (most of them) and the language.” Right. You complain constantly about things which happen here and which you portray as Hungarian attributes (poor education, corruption, tax evasion) as if these things don’t happen elsewhere. Also, as if there has been no correlation to Hungary’s post- communist past. One of my first posts to you was on your complaining of a Hungarian public servant abusing her govt. funded mobile phone when the UK government had just reported on civil servants stealing hundreds of laptops. And tax evasion? Follow the G20 summit?
    As with UJ, you have no knowledge of recent history of this country, or comparative knowledge of the region, and no tolerance for what Hungary has gone through, and seem to have no compassion for people who are struggling to keep their heads over water, as opposed to some pompous expat immigrant. Any reference to the communist past or the recent past is “making excuses”. Your posts are far from honest, as they purposely twist everything I write, and insist on grouping me into a category (another Bolshevik black propaganda tactic) so no, there is no point in replying.

  158. Vándorló says:

    @Tünde: “You are a nasty piece of work.” Hey, we agree on something. Can we be friends now?
    Notes:
    1.Which genetic research are you referring to, I can find none. Intolerance to alcohol affects a minority in all populations, you have to show that this intolerance in greater in Hungarians and if possible some idea why this is so, but I would accept anything, rather than your usual vacuous claims.
    2.I have stated here on numerous occasions my disgust for British tourists whose only objective is drinking themselves back into the stupor they are accustomed to back home.
    3.Your basic argument is that I only find fault with things here. I respond to your ridiculous excuses for waste, thievery and bigotry. This doesn’t mean that this is my understanding or experience of Hungary or Hungarians. It just means your claims and excuses for why Hungarians and Hungary’s current situation is down to *everyone else* apart from Hungary and Hungarians is pathetic.
    4.I don’t care what you do and don’t believe, you would be better sticking to facts.
    5.You claim not to insult and only be subjected to insults. Yet you constantly insult people’s nationalities, cultures, ways of working and earning a living.
    6.How do you know I am British/English? I keep asking this, but you never answer. It sounds like an insult, so since you claim you don’t insult, then please explain.
    7.Tough luck about your friend, sounds like a real whinger, you must be close?
    8.I have 3 degrees (2 masters) and it took me at least 10 years before I was really skilled with computers. Your college leavers can’t get jobs because they are useless shite that don’t know their arses from their elbows and aren’t good enough. Do you really think college leavers cut it? Do you think computing is like your useless discipline, read a few books then start spouting worthless shite and expect people to pay for the privilege of what you produce? I work internationally for international clients as I indirectly stated. So would I get work in the UK, yes, because some of my work comes from the UK, but the rest comes from whoever wants my skills and can afford them. Haven’t you heard, it’s 2009?
    9.Where we are doesn’t matter any more, as long as I have an internet connection I can work there. You’re just bitter because your skills are non transferable and no-one in their right mind outside of Hungary would want them. Stuck in Hungary so you have to find excuses for the crap stuff and you are too lazy to fight corruption?

  159. anon600ad says:

    Tunde,
    On the subject of identity theft, invasion of privacy etc…I couldn’t agree with you more. The act of accessing someone else’s email and the other things you listed are immoral to me.Not once have I defended such a thing. I think posting in someone else’s name is silly. I think in principle, I generally agree with you on free speech. As far as hate speech goes…As I say this, I am not being judgemental, but also reflecting on the experience of my own country. I don’t think ‘venting one’s rage’ is always helpful. I don’t go in for this thing about expressing one’s feelings as necessarily being therapeutic or even ‘right’. The pragmatic part of me also says that there is little point expressing such deep seated rage if the other side is either not interested, or is also engaging in the same thing. I don’t know about you, but when someone starts yelling at me, I stop listening. As far as the law goes though, well…that is very complex. I don’t think that means it should be ‘anything goes’. I think that the injudicious use of hate-speech rules/laws is just as bad as the genuine hate speech itself.
    I also agree with you that just posting insults without any substantive point is a waste of time. So on that, you did answer my query about that line being seemingly contradictory.
    To answer your other point about past events. It was you that mentioned the world bank quote, which I replied to showing that this in fact one of the very issues that you had misread/misunderstood me on. You brought up that example up, so I answered it. Pots calling Kettles black? Perhaps, but only insomuch as everyone in this forum is a black pot, so my original comment about ad hominem argument stands. This latest conversation has not been a personal attack, as I have repeatedly tried to make clear.
    You mentioned that my posts are PC. In a sense, I take that as a compliment. If you’re saying that I try to communicate in a way that doesn’t use offensive language, then yes, I do try. I figure if one can’t express themselves without being horrid, then perhaps there is enough noise in the world already. Also, as silly as it sounds, but maybe you understand, I like my language and I try to use it well. I regret my earlier ‘ruder’ posts, and perhaps they have made later communication more difficult.If you are saying that I am being disingenuous, and that my ‘PC’ posts hide a deeper agenda, then this really is a misunderstanding on your part.
    (cont)

  160. anon600ad says:

    (cont)
    If you were referring to a political persuasion, I can only say that in my research I work with people with mental health issues. Many of these are victims and survivors of all kinds of abuse some of which is absolutely sickening. My political motivation extends as far as fighting for the rights of people who are largely voiceless ‘non-entities’. I don’t have party loyalties, I support whoever tries to help those who are among the most disempowered in society. I have to use PC language to be heard, and also because there are so many limits on what is regarded as ‘ethical practice’ that I simply can’t afford to revert to harsh language.
    Incidentally, As far as political statements go, I was just saying to someone today ‘I think universal healthcare and education are great, but the money has to come from somewhere. There is little point hanging on to some ideal of universality if it is just universally crap. The hard part is, who decided who gets help and who doesn’t?’
    On the whole, I think you and I could communicate, so perhaps what I’m genuinely asking for is the chance to do so without labels or past judgements.

  161. Barbie says:

    @Legion you sorry Soul!!
    Is there more than one Nicene Creed? Yes, somehow the original creedal formulation was apparently lost. Consequently, the Nicene Creed was reformulated essentially as we know it today at the second ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381 – more than fifty years after the initial creed was adopted.
    Then there is the Lost in Translation of the writings, you really are a Frigg in Tool!!
    Now instead of dribble state your questions coherently? Or is it too much for your Idiotic character to fathom!

    More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll. Taken 2006.

    A monumental new scientific opinion poll has emerged which declares that only 16% of people in America now believe the official government explanation of the September 11th 2001 terror attacks.
    The 84% figure mirrors other recent polls on the same issue. A Canadian Poll put the figure at 85%. A CNN poll had the figure at 89%. Over 80% supported the stance of Charlie Sheen when he went public with his opinions on 9/11 as an inside job.
    A recent CNN poll found that the percentage of Americans who blame the Bush administration for the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington rose from almost a third to almost half over the past four years. This latest poll shows that that figure has again risen exponentially and now stands at well over three quarters of the population.

    You really should get a Life Legion or you will end up choking on your own Vomit!!

  162. Légió says:

    @Barbie: So your basic ‘argument’ is that if people believe something it’s true and the more people believe it, the more true it is?
    Well, you’ve convinced me completely. Quite brilliant.
    And if three people said they saw a tiger in the market, would that make the tiger appear and real: 三人成虎
    Probably not!

  163. QC says:

    The State Financial Supervisory Authority (PSZÁF) imposed a record EUR 1.6 million fine on the New York-based Soros Fund Management last week for breaking rules on influencing the market while trading on the Budapest Stock Exchange

    “The landing of Shattuck can be rightly seen as a masterstroke by CEU’s trustees and founder / chief benefactor George Soros, as he brings to the job a seemingly perfect résumé, which ranges from diplomacy to academia to a stint as national staff counsel of the American Civil Liberties Union..” ???
    Dichotomy?
    Georgie ‘porgie” Soros was found guilty of “insider trading” some years ago in France. He is a “convicted” criminal. Everything here, is fact. The decimation of the “pound” in the early nineties also “masterminded” by Georgie. It took the UK ten years to recover. We have not forgotten. Marianna. N:B.

  164. Vándorló says:

    @Tünde: I’ve let a lot of the crap you spout go by uncommented on, but just thought I’d address your pathetic understanding of economics and history in relation to Ireland. Back in comment 103 you remarked about how what you call the ‘neo-liberal’ market economy was proof that these policies don’t work. Obviously your calling everything ‘neo-liberal’ is a useful way to hide your ignorance and shows your inability to cope with different market models, demographics and histories.
    You remarked how somehow Ireland’s current housing bubble bursting was support for your belief that we should all return to the stone age of nation state protectionism and bartering, closing out markets and ethnic cleansing (summarising your other professed views on nationality and multi-ethnicity).
    Anyway, the main point is your example regarding Ireland shows how little you know, understand and are sensitive to their history, too.
    Let me tell you another story, about one of my Uncles (who married into our family, he was one of 18 children) who had to leave Ireland in the 1950’s (when the Irish and Blacks suffered the same race hatred in the UK and the US) because there were no opportunities or work back home (all his siblings left too). He made his fortune after he moved to America, California and only returned to Ireland when his daughters and wife who visited Ireland on holiday phoned him and told him they were not going to return to the US and that it was time to come home. When he did he bought the big house in the area, that had previously been that of the Gunn family (the English protestants that had ended up owning pretty much everything around there). But he still couldn’t move his money back home because of the ridiculous tax system, nor was it worthwhile converting the house into a hotel as he had planned because of the tax and bureaucracy. In the village (Bailedubh) any young person was still bound to move away. When I went there in 1990 not one person under 30 could be seen in town. It was only when the ‘neo-liberal’ economics hit in in Ireland that the Irish finally had an opportunity to choose to stay and earn a decent living. Many moved back. My Uncle finally moved his money and assets to Ireland and converted the house he was living in – and it all made economic sense. Your pathetic link to that story of people having to move abroad to find work just shows your ignorance and insensitivity to Ireland’s history. Really do you actually know anything about Ireland?

  165. C'est moi says:

    @BArbie – “A monumental new scientific opinion poll has emerged which declares that only 16% of people in America now believe the official government explanation of the September 11th 2001 terror attacks.”

    I don’t know where you get your so-called facts from but what you have just written is a pile of pig shit piled as high as the World Trade Center stood. If you think 80% of Americans align their view with Martin Sheen you need to get your head checked.

  166. Visitor says:

    Tünde: “There are people and organisations, like the Nácivadász Szövetség will use tactics to destroy someone’s character and even contact their place of work” Red Eva a. k. a. BSE is one such ‘people’ who contacted Vizi Szilveszter, head of the Institute of Experimental Medicine (KOKI) at the time about a researcher whose views she didn’t like on our list. She also contacted a dean at the University of Szeged about a professor that she first tried to get kicked off a Hungarian language discussion list we were all on including btw the lovely individual that has been calling himself Nácivadász Szövetség lately. How do I know? I know it from Red Eva herself who bragged about it *on the list* and threatened to do the same to others while Nácivadász hacked into some less savvy people’s PCs wreaking all sorts of havoc, revealing personal information as he did with Hot Paprika here, and worse. Typical MO btw for ex and second generation apparatchiks. It’s just how they relate to anyone outside their caste who doesn’t submit. Like sheep dogs treat sheep…
    @QC /”Georgie porgie Soros… is a convicted criminal…” Soros buys (read prostitutes) (potential) politicians and intellectuals creating a collaborating caste of people that may otherwise resist his/their agenda (such as Orbán who btw turned out to be a flop). Václav Klaus understood this and kicked him out of the Czech Republic ( Beware of billionaires bearing gifts By Richard C. Morais, Forbes Magazine, April 7, 1997 http://tinyurl.com/dfuzpy ) like we should kick him out. It is the way Soros’ kind has always operated from the Rotschilds to Sokolow (proud owner of A. Balfour) Again, things are not what they seem… the more they change…

  167. Visitor says:

    @Légió /”Thanks for the statements of the obvious” you being a pompous ass? Well, you are right, it _is obvious, I just thought I’d state it for the record… you’re welcome btw! “I’ve already made it clear I know far more about the Romany cultures in UK, Ireland and Hungary…” You’ve also ‘made clear’ that you are the sun god Ra, you incredible pojáca. “believe it or not there are some things I don’t know” :-) No shit! “[I am] pretending [I am] more Hungarian than the Hungarians” ‘Hungarians’ such as YOU? What stunning insolence! What monumental, pathologically narcissistic CHUTZPAH topped off by trying to convince whom? me? us? that you are more Hungarian than I am?! &, why are you so bloody Hungarian? Because you pay taxes here! You’re a riot! Please don’t tell me that people don’t beat you up at least twice a week. I would lose my faith in humanity… “Tünde in response to a remark about Soros noted that in a previous year a conference had been held over Easter on a date that ‘was important to our faith’ or words to that effect. She at least identifies herself with the New Testament in whichever flavour” She said ‘they hosted their conference on anti-semitism, on Easter Sunday and Monday, in a region where, for many, this is a holiday as or more important than Christmas” which is correct. It is also true that faith/religion/re-ligio/reconnect(ion)to the source of Life is as basic to human existence as sex and just like sexuality if it is thwarted it will turn into perversion like Marxism or Zionism or your neo-whatever trash. Most of these http://ajanlo.kapu.hu/pics.php?d=cardiff people used to go to church for example. They go to pubs now instead or fuck around or get high which is what you people call progress. “You have to believe what you are told by the head poncho” Another crock. “follow it and talk to your priest about it when you go to confession” You don’t even have to go to confession if just sincerely regret your sins. If you can’t do that the Church will assist you. It’s OPTIONAL. Catholic or καθολικός too just means general or universal i. e. catholic Church simply means Universal Church. “Can anyone explain to me why Eve gets the rap for original sin” Because Eve is Adam and Adam is Eve, they are ONE, you moron, like you and your ‘partner’ will never be.

  168. Visitor says:

    @Légió cont. /”Which of the other Hungarian millionaires/billionaires has even bothered to do stuff like that?” *Many tried, not just millionaires but ordinary people like Béla Lipták, formerly of Yale for example, and were tripped up and chased out of Hungary by Demszky types. Only Soros & Co. was ALLOWED to USE HIS/THEIR money in Hungary “to do good”

  169. Visitor says:

    @Дядя Грозный /”You’ve obviously been searching for my posts” I REMEMBERED your post, went back to it and cut and pasted what you wrote here… “milk-livered (?) indentured servant… Visidiot…” How remarkably similar you sound to Axeman Eugene/IQ 1.6! Birds of a feather I suppose. Unless you’re posting as them as well which also wouldn’t surprise me. “Where am I from, you inbred fuckhead?” You sound so desperate! Why don’t you ask your wife? Or, is she a drunk too and you both forgot? You poor lost souls! (Observe how these right thinking progressives’ manners suddenly deteriorate and proceed to do you in the ‘old fashioned way’ when they realize you see through them and don’t buy their poison :) “You said & implied everything I highlighted in (a-e)” Don’t be ridiculous. All anyone has to do is scroll up to see that you’re lying your ass off as usual. “How dare I lecture you? I dare, because I don’t fear [you just because you see through me like an x-ray machine]” Of course not, you’re a *soldier,* a *military man!* Isn’t that interesting? What was your favorite interrogation technique, tovarish? Don’t you wish you could do some of those things to Tünde now? “even among Hungarians… Correction…” :-))) How Freudian! And your correction is even worse! “moronic mentality is evident around us in Hungary, Hungarians” Ditto… How have we ever deserved you oh Baba Eren, Great Teacher? “Oh, the language bit? Haven’t got down to it yet. Still battling [giants] like you” I can’t help noticing the vast difference between arrogant assholes like yourselves who don’t even bother to learn our language, socialize with other hostile aliens and people like Anon or Sophist who have at least some sort of access to our society via a Hungarian spouse or girlfriend and know (some) Hungarian, even Hatökör who is shacked up with a Hungo I bet…

  170. UJ says:

    @Visidiot – I used that name after someone had appropriately called you that. It suits to a T. Others are free to do likewise. Does it offend you? If so, let me know, and I’ll use it often. Milk livered – that’s Shakespeare, you fool (sound familiar?) Indentured servant is the best translation I got from your debates with IQ.
    Strange how you spend so much time debating someone whom you think has an IQ of 1.6?
    Who’s desperate? Just a reminder to stick to the topic and answer the question. Your usual reaction is to cower in a corner, whine, and have a mental breakdown. This is usually followed by an attack of keyboard diarrhoea, akin to using an AA gun firing wildly in the air at anyone ‘flying’ way over your head. Well, a fool with a tool is still a fool.
    With regards to what you said, you assumed (wrongly) that I referred only to what you wrote as visidiot. I didnt (see#112). Van also confirmed your other identities.
    Soldier (ex!). We dont torture unlike your buddies at Abu Ghraib, and you here on Pestiside. If you had served your country, you’d know that. But then, you upheld your family tradition of hightailing it and took a ‘medical deferment’. Cant blame you. Mental illness & guns dont mix.
    I couldn’t are less about Tunde. It was mainly her lack of understanding on several issues which made me decide to take a break. I still read all the stuff (& your drivel) until she ‘invited’ me back. Speaking of drunks, you think she was referring to you when she said Hungarians had problems with alcoholism.

  171. UJ says:

    Visidiot – Language bit? Oooh. I like this. Am I not interacting with Hungarian society, or don’t you qualify as a ‘real Hungarian’? Actually it’s quite easy to understand Hungary’s problems by reading your posts. Mind you, it’s not the explanations, but the realisation that there are several clowns like you out there. I like winding you up by declaring I don’t want to learn Hungarian. I’d rather spend that time to learn Chinese – probably a more useful language anyway. I learn more about Hungary than you’d believe from my students.
    Wow, visidiot – you really think I should shack up with a Hungo ‘chick’ to improve my understanding?
    Come to think of it, I don’t really need to understand Hungarian to help my students. You’re claim to be expert on blacks even though you don’t know speak Swahili(yeah, just your pidgin rasta talk). Also, I don’t want to listen to your lame ass excuses in another language. I’m helping them to understand what’s outside Hungary, and to prepare them for that. If they’re smart (as you believe all Hungarians are, LOL), they’ll know what knowledge to keep, what to discard, what to modify, and how to use it.
    I’m not sure if it was your mama’s embellished fables of magyar heroics to entertain a dim-witted 3 year old mind, or you trying to decifer her incoherent ramblings whilst being breastfed from palinka-filled titties, which makes you search for a bogeyman under every paprika leaf (no offence mama, it’s just army lingo summarizing Tunde’s genetic theories). I believe my students(most) will try to plan & work things out for themselves without making excuses or you/your parent’s generations monumental errors. Big challenge, but then, they’re not you, so there’s a better chance that they’ll succeed where you failed.
    If you’re so concerned that they’re being brainwashed, why dont you move here, and do your bit to compete for their mindshare. From the looks of it, you’re losing that battle too by keeping up the family tradition & scurrying down your distant burrow with your blowhorn.

  172. Barbie says:

    @Visitor ! Your description of society is so relevant, makes a lot of sense to me, if only more people would see the world as you describe it.. Love Barbie

  173. Barbie says:

    @Visitor
    What percentage do you think were at in achieving a higher state of consciousness, for an inner vision and experience as a society begining with Hungary? Have you witnessed any race or nation that has the potential in our current state? or are we on a downward spiral? And is there any entities you suggest people can focus on to turn the dial back in raising our level of consciousness? Would love to hear your wisdom on spiritual growth? It appears you seem to understand whats happening to our state of growth as Spiritual beings. xx

  174. Róka says:

    Erik. What beast have you spawned, here? I have never read such a cascade of incoherent claptrap.
    It does give an insight into the human psyche,though.
    I will include myself in the list of meandering misfits – in case I get fire-bombed!
    O what a tangled web we weave
    When at first we try to deceive.
    (Pok)

  175. Axeman Eugene says:

    “Insight into human psyche”. Who said anyone here is human?
    @Roka – Come In Number 51, Your Time Is Up.

  176. anon600ad says:

    Visitor:
    I appreciate that in your comment I had some access to Hungarian society via my partner. On the topic of learning Hungarian. I do try, but Hungarian is really not an easy language to learn, and admittedly I am not the best language student. I was really disappointed with my employers, who although under the terms of my contract had an obligation to provide me with a minimum of two hours per week of dedicated language classes, consistently found every excuse under the sun for why it couldn’t happen. I later found out that the supervisors were actually being paid an extra allowance for my ‘classes’, and were regularly providing the funding agency with bogus progress reports. I have done my best to learn on my own with my partner’s and friends’ help. When the representative from the agency came to do an audit of the project, I was informed point blank that ‘you will give a positive report’ and will tell them that ‘the language classes are going well’. God knows what would have happened if she (the rep) said something really difficult to me in Hungarian. During the interview, both supervisors and even the commandant came. They sat me in a chair which I am still convinced was designed to make its occupant feel uncomfortable and disempowered. (low to the floor, leaning back at an overly reclined angle, with large, chunky, high wooden armrests.) They would not let me answer any questions, except for those which were ‘filtered’ through them. Some of that stuff still creeps me out. Perhaps it doesn’t sound so creepy through just my words, but the feeling of malevolence and intent were undeniable. I will never regret travelling to Hungary. I have learned so much and have done things I never thought I would do. The feeling of being pre-judged so openly did make me a bit defensive about the whole ‘evil expat’ thing, though I do recognise that many are motivated by something other than their interest in culture and society. I genuinely hope that the Hungarian language and traditions aren’t lost, and I do worry for the future of Hungary. I have to say though that the feeling of hostility and disdain were less than pleasant.
    I don’t know what this really has to do with everything else here, but I thought it was something interesting to add.

  177. Tünde says:

    anon600ad: I thought to let this thread go, especially because of Vándorló’s ravings, but you misunderstood what I wrote, and it relates to the base of this thread. PC means being polite or not using offensive language only with regard to proclaimed “marginalised groups”. In fact it most often means intolerance (for “non marginalised” groups) and censorship on certain subjects regarding “marginalised” groups and has roots in fascism. Orwell described it best first in his novel 1984, as Newspeak. Many think it began under Mao, but it was really created by (so-called) marxists (including a few born here) in the Frankfurt School of nazi Germany, and really was promoted when the School was moved to the US. It is not by chance that the ones behind the PC movement here were both former maoists and also taught by Frankfurt School associates. There was an interesting dicsussion on Politics.hu a few months back on this, a shame that poster is gone. I was pointing out that your posts were politically correct on this site, at least (defending the World Bank, writing (harshly) that complaints by Hungarians re: Trianon are unfounded, and being uncritical about expats, or migration in general are all PC. I apologise if I exaggerate, but those are the impressions I got from your posts on those topics.) Pesticide, as I pointed out above, is PC, which does not mean not offensive. I do not think your posts hide a deeper agenda. I said you were disingenuous because of the reasons you wrote on not replying to me directly. Again, I do not know your political persuasion, I mentioned it because you accused me above of assuming it. I know you worked in mental health for police, I remember writing on the expat thing that (ironically!) you won the prize for the most useful work done here by an expat of any mentioned. You remain in the 1% (ok, max 10%) of expats here benefiting the country. I do not “prejudge” expats, I gave enough evidence to prove my point of what kind of (mainly anglo) expats were in Eastern Europe. No one countered with actual arguments.

    I don’t understand your addition on universal healthcare/education, as it is not related to PC, but I find it rather strange for someone concerned with those with no voice. I take it you mean universal healthcare and education=crap, and selective healthcare and education=quality. Another thread there.

  178. Tünde says:

    anon600ad: Correction. Amongst the topics I listed, although Trianon has PC aspects, probably the only PC related topic you addressed would be immigration. My point was that you didn’t write anything which could be attacked by the thought police.

  179. Visitor says:

    @Barbie /”are we on a downward spiral?” You bet. Almost every Hungarian I know wants to leave and many don’t even believe there _will be a Hungary by the end of this century. One of the main reasons many of us remain is simply that there is nowhere to run since the whole world seems to have turned to shit. Not just the environment (one in three US preteens believes that the Earth won’t exist when they grow up) our spirituality as well. Yes, spirituality/re-ligio will help if you’re careful with all the cranks and pseudo religions flooding in (Hungary’s become a nut magnet) from cults like the Children of God (the Family) to Hit Gyülekezete that are just as bad as the PC douchebags that plague us here. (Although PC douchebags don’t hate anything, I mean NOTHING including ‘fascism’ more than they hate religion;) I am also glad to see that more and more villages are circling the wagons in north and west Hungary, forming real communities, looking out for each other, like the government and the police should but doesn’t.

  180. Visitor says:

    @i-pabëse /”Strange how you spend so much time debating someone whom you think has an IQ of 1.6″ Actually, I think your IQ is a lot lower, 0.16 perhaps? *Military intelligence. “We dont torture” O RLY? Army brass in your country is part of the Apparat, the ruling elite. Chances are you’re a Tamás Gáspár Miklós type of guy,aren’t you, shok kolonel? Not only have your comrades tortured but according to an ex-EU judge they sold their victims body parts on the international black market. How progressive… “Mental illness & guns dont mix” Since when? “her lack of understanding” She understands you alright. It’s her lack off *acceptance of the sewage you’re poisoning our young people’s minds with that bugs you, isn’t it? “Am I not interacting with Hungarian society, or don’t…you? qualify as a ‘real Hungarian’?” You don’t qualify as any kind of Hungarian, remember? “you think she was referring to you when she said Hungarians had problems with alcoholism” YOUR alcoholism? Again, she was talking about HUNGARIANS which you are NOT. Or have you forgotten that as well, lost commissar? “Actually it’s quite easy to understand Hungary’s problems by reading your posts” Right. Since, according to you, I am not really Hungarian… Military logic I suppose. “I like winding you up by declaring I don’t want to learn Hungarian” Really? Wouldn’t it have been easier to ‘wind me up’ by *telling me* that you don’t want to learn Hungarian (like I give a shit) instead of writing that you have just not gotten around to it? “I’d rather spend that time to learn Chinese – probably a more useful language anyway” Oh, yeah, you people were in bed with the Chinks for ages. Too bad they don’t like Muslims any more. On the other hand you could probably torture Uighurs for them who are even related to Hungarians which would be an added bonus for you no doubt.

  181. Visitor says:

    @i-pabëse, cont. /”I learn more about Hungary than you’d believe from my students” They tell you what you want to hear. Don’t you even know that? “you really think I should shack up with a Hungo ‘chick’ to improve my understanding?” If you’re into chickens, sure. Although, for someone with your background I would recommend a goat. You could even have a ménage à trois with your wife (or whatever number of wives, chickens and/or goats are involved.) It would be like being back home again, wouldn’t it? “palinka-filled titties… a bogeyman under every paprika leaf” How about ‘milk-livered, indentured boogeymen under every booze soaked paprika leaf?’ Are you loosing it again, 同志? “your parent’s generations monumental errors” Like they let you in Hungary? “scurrying down your distant burrow with your blowhorn” Harrow by nayles and by blood! Howe yow encresseth my penaunce! Now demeth as yow liste ye that kan, for I wol telle forth, as I bigan! GO HOME little Stalin, will you?

  182. anon600ad says:

    Tunde: I wasn’t aware that I was under some obligation to make myself a target for the thought police. Who are the thought police anyway? Don’t worry, I have been attacked plenty for my views on various things, but then, that is none of your concern. So you don’t think I could possibly be telling the truth about why I didn’t address you directly. Did that annoy you that much? The truth is, it is the truth. I stopped talking to you because to me, it became a pointless exercise. You attacked me without ever showing any interest in the central topic or in actually communicating with me. At first (at least to me) you seemed to be well spoken and educated, but soon after, I felt that you had decided what I thought and was not looking to establish anything beyond that. In fact, it seemed as though you had a set of responses already lined up beforehand. I saw the discussion meandering away from the topic and saw myself getting more annoyed, which is always a sign for me that it is time to withdraw and refocus. I am surprised that this had such an affect on you. I generally don’t really see why my words are so important in the scheme of things. Anyway, that is water under the bridge. Quite frankly, if you still believe that I am somehow dishonest about this, it is something you have to deal with.
    Having said that, I do thank you for your kind remarks regarding my work with the police. I only hope that it will have some longer-term effect. Considering the reputation of police, I often wonder how those fresh-faced young recruits can go from being so innocent to being so reviled. Institutional culture is a demon sometimes.
    (cont)

  183. anon600ad says:

    You really don’t need to try to ‘educate’ me on what PC is…and yes, I have read 1984. As a form of language, PC like any other, can and is abused. For sure it is used the way you describe. There is another use for it though, and that is as an effective means of communication between disparate groups. I do agree that sometimes it is taken too far, but then, as I said, that is the case with all languages including Hungarian. I have learned through my own experience that diplomacy using PC language is a very useful and effective skill. I know it is a kind of ‘fashion’ to attack PC as a claim to be returning to plain language and the good old days of truth and morality, but really, I don’t think humanity has changed a whole lot since the day we saw the first obelisk apart from us now having bigger weapons. I also actually think that trying to discredit me for using polite language is a bit contradictory since the lack of manners is something you complained very vocally about. As far as controversial views go, I have not always been so moderate. I was also, however, very wrong and that is something I have to live with. I realised that being angry was destroying me and alienating a lot of people who were actually good people. Incidentally, my mentioning the education and healthcare situation was meant as it was written. I would like to think that your misreading of that was not intentional. In actual fact, I think that universal healthcare and education are among the highest goals that any society could have. They are, however, extremely expensive and at the point where they are so compromised that they fail to function effectively, questions must be asked about the point of continuing in the same direction. So how’s this for controversial? Although I think holocaust denial is offensive, I don’t think it should be illegal. I also think that governments need to be really careful about legislating what constitutes ‘hate speech’. Incidentally, I don’t always think that what is ‘true’ is always ‘right’. Moreover, I don’t believe that what the ‘majority’ thinks is always right either. I think that generally speaking, many more people SHOULD be politically active and that the right to protest should always be protected. At the same time, I have no respect for people for whom the actual cause becomes secondary to the need to abuse others or who justify hatred for its own sake.
    (cont)

  184. UJ says:

    @Visidiot – Looks like you’re losing (sp.) it again! Your grammar is getting worse – not that it was anything to write home about.
    Calm down, and put your palinka nipple back in.
    Army brass, apparat, EU judge, body parts, goats, chickens, Uighurs, Muslims…??????? See, I told you anyone could easily understand the problems in Hungary by reading your posts :-) Btw, what exactly is your benefit to Hungary?
    a. Paying taxes in Hungary.
    b. Humongous cash donations to benefit Hungarian society.
    c. Humongous cash donations to benefit Hungarian politicians.
    d. Trawling expat sites in Hungary until you find a real job. Btw how’s the job search going? Hungary was looking for a new PM, but as usual you’re a week too late. Do I have to keep reminding you, you need to sober up and send it those applications early!
    Have a great weekend & don’t finish the bottle :-)

  185. anon600ad says:

    I make no apology for my political views; that is my right and my responsibility. I see nothing admirable or more worthy in being an extremist. I think the road to success takes hard work, patience, time and the ability to compromise. I didn’t travel all the way to Hungary to judge Hungarians, and I have said many times that considering the Hungarian experience, that the level of unhappiness and disillusionment is hardly surprising. Generally speaking, party politics is to me at least, an enormous drain on the people in that it fails to actually represent ‘the people’. In this regard, what is needed is a much greater degree of political awareness and constructive action. I believe in trying to find the right policy for the situation. That means elements of socialism such as universal healthcare and education goals, as well as effectively regulated capitalism. (meaning some protectionism to protect emerging industries and provide some measure of stability. I honestly don’t think isolationism is the answer. As far as protecting culture and tradition, I worry that many Hungarians are actually unconsciously making hatred, resentment and pessimism their culture. I repeat again, that this is not a judgment and is not surprising. I don’t agree though that breaking down barriers between nations necessarily means the dissolution of culture though. I think a culture survives as long as people preserve it. Perhaps controversially though, I don’t believe that culture is necessarily sacred. All cultures evolve even without intervention and it is unrealistic to think that any culture can remain unaffected forever. The ones that survive are the ones that are able to adapt, while preserving their core values. If, however, those core values include hatred and a desire to destroy each other, then I can’t say I think it is worth saving…and that goes for any culture…mine included.

  186. Visitor says:

    @anon600ad /”evil expat” It wasn’t evil ex-pat, it was evil IMF, corporations and governments, including the Hungarian ‘government’ that most of you work for. You yourselves are more often than not just brainwashed, clueless and/or useless including those that seethe with hate like Axie. We have some evil guests too but they just read, analyze and report, or act as they are ordered, but don’t comment here. (Although there may be exceptions.) ‘the feeling of malevolence and intent were undeniable’ Which perfectly describes the apparatchik MO, instantly recognizable to any Hungarian except we know the difference between KAPOs and inmates. There is again a huge difference between the accounts of your personal experiences that are usually spot-on: your partner ( used be ‘girl friend…’ :) her mom, cops, Gypsies, our ‘roncstársadalom’ (although you don’t recognize it as such) and the PC bull you internalized about the Shoa business, the Anglosphere, ‘capitalism,’ etc. “I have learned through my own experience that diplomacy using PC language is a very useful and effective skill” Can you give me an example? “I have not always been so moderate” Really? What were you like? “They are, however, extremely expensive” Less expensive than the weapons we are forced to buy instead. “Although I think holocaust denial is offensive” How about Santa Claus denial? Do you find that offensive too? “I don’t always think that what is true is always right” I think they are synonymous but prove me wrong by giving us an example of true & wrong “I think the road to success takes hard work, patience, time and the ability to compromise” Arbeit macht frei? “any culture…mine included” Which is?
    @Brainwash Hoxha /”I told you anyone could easily understand the problems in Hungary…” /one of which is you… ;) / “by reading your posts” We finally agree on something! МОЛОДЕЦ!

  187. UJ says:

    @Visidiot- Brainwashed Hoxha? Whew! At least you didn’t call me a brain-dead, klepto Magyar. Oooh, ooh…guess what? My Albie student kicked Hungie ass again on the latest test. How did you know that? I haven’t released the results. …..Visitor…..did you cheat,.. again?
    You finally agreed (with yourself, again) that I am one small problem (okay, okay, I’ll give you this one – but I’m YOUR problem). But,what are we going to do with the other 9.99 mil other problems? I’m thinking maybe we could maybe sweep it under the EU rug, and try to keep it quiet. You know, lie low, until the shit blows over. But, you gotta keep lay off the paprika & onions and stop farting around, man. Them farts are SBD, and it really stinks up the country. Whew!
    祝你今天愉快 :-)

  188. Visitor says:

    @Mr. Charrington /”My Albie student kicked Hungie ass again on the latest test” What a surprise. Was it on doublethink or Duckspeak? “you gotta… stop farting” Why would I fart? It’s your national anthem… 祝你尽快离开

 
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