Nation Gasps as Obama Finally Breathes Word "Hungary"

Hungary has become the poster child of insane crisis mismanagement.
As locals would say, the country is "a béka segge alatt" and sinking. Thank you Mr. Gyurcsany!

Just wait until all those people from the middle east start settling in Hungary along with the Gitmo dudes because Obama will say to your politicians, it is the right thing to do. They will then be mesmerized by his words like some dumb ass Americans are.

The Hungarian govt confiscates 50-60% of the hungarian economy. Thats communism. it doesnt work. Do they have books in hungary? People should read. Only extreme capitalism can work in hungary. Nothing less than that. Or you can stick with socialism and be poor and under -performing forever. Very sad with all the talented people in hungary.

Stan, for the first time ever, I totally agree with you. I remember sooooo clearly the day this whole downward spiral really started--the day the "elkurtuk" speech was leaked--but I had no idea it would end up with us THIS far in the shit.

Mariska. What downward spiral?..who is in the shit? Where are the remarks that you agree with..?

Are you, "riding down Stan's snake into a bucket of shit at a remarkably fast pace"?

What the flying fuck is "extreme capitalism"? Is it trading credit default swaps on your cell phone while bungee jumping?

But yeah, whatever. Unfetterred capitalism, huzzagh! I hear it worked like gangbusters for the good 'ole U.S. during the Bush years. How's that going, anyways?

salk5: extreme capitalism? you must be kidding... the recent events have just proven that extreme capitalism does not work. nor does communism. it's time to wake up and come up with something new people.

As far as I can tell, it was "extreme" capitalism that got us all into this mess.

From the sub-prime market in the US (giving mortgages on over valued houses, leading to negative equity that was then unable to be repaid by the poor home owner.) Then the largest banks in the world choosing to ignore the economic signals and advice of their own risk consultants (RBS sacking theirs for his dissent) and carrying on with business as usual and paying themselves a HUGE bonus for their perceived short term gains!

Hungary needs unfetterred capitalism like it needs an extra arsehole. Capitalism has lined the pockets of successive Hungarian governments as they sold of the heritage and property of the nation (Hungarian Tax Payers)

I reckon it's time to nationalise key industries and have a portion of their profit re-invested into the tax paying society (schools, hospitals, infrastructure), re-organise education here so that Hungarians can run their own affairs in manufacturing, engineering and IT as well as import expertise in education where they need it.
Also, whilst maintaining EU trading relationships, to look beyond the EU as a reliable partner to find new markets where Hungary can be a competitive player.

G

You guys must be kidding when you say that "extreme capitalism" got Hungary into its current mess. How can you have "extreme capitalism" when the state regulates, meddles in, or has businesses of its own in virtual every corner of economic life? Hungary's perpetual crisis, which predates the current global crisis, is due above all to an out-of-control state which encourages its citizens and businesses to act as irresponsibly as possible, so that no one will get the crazy idea that they can live without begging money off of the state. Meanwhile, the alleged "trigger" for the crisis - the meltdown of the mortgage market in the United States - can be directly traced to the numerous ways in which the US gov't encouraged reckless lending and borrowing, via preposterously low interest rates and various regulatory directives and tax subsidies. All that said, you could make a case that Iceland's meltdown was due to unchecked market-mania, and in general markets are, despite the belief of some libertarians, not always perfect judges of value, at least in the short-run. (In other words, the occasional bubble and resulting panic revaluation is a fact of life.) But to say that the current mess is exclusively the fault of market fundamentalism - and that more socialism would bring greater stability and prosperity - is just silly. The answer is for everyone, especially governments, to just face up to the fact that they had been overly optimistic in valuing their assets and future incomes, and adjust their spending and debt load to suit reality. It's a big and awful shit sandwich, but it's going to have to be eaten, and all this yakking about "extreme capitalism" and so on is just distracting everyone from the inevitable first big bite.

Erik,

Capitalism as we understand it so far has not worked as well for everyone as a free marketeer may believe - that is a fact not conjecture. My comments relate to the conditions that exacerbated a global crisis, not to just Hungary.

It is common economic knowledge that one of the contributing factors is that most of the economies of the world were growing at the same high rate just before the crisis and so are now all eating your 'shit sandwich" at the same time.

Prior to this the anglo-american economies' growth was counterbalanced by reduction in Euro growth, or that in Asia, so it was possible to move funds effectively to mitigate losses.

So rather than "extreme" capitalism, I would say rampant, no holds, no legislation capitalism is the direct cause of where we are now. (we means globe not Hungary)

One only has to look back to Enron, Fannie/Freddie, RBS and a host of others, to see that capitalism without regulation is just about lining the pockets of a few individuals, at the expense of the tax payers who then will bail them out.

As far as I can tell, the end result of this kind of capitalism has led to enforced "nationalisation" in the UK, and is heading that way in the US in the auto industry and potentially many others.

No matter how unpalletable socialism may sound to some, mismanagement of the markets on this scale has led to governments and the tax payer having a larger stake in industry than any of us feel comfortable with.

I see Hungary as a separate issue, and my comments there stand. Hungary has given away too much too quickly, and yes - this has been too attractive an opportunity for people in power to turn down. It is the open theft by members of the Hungarian government that is the main issue in this neck of the woods, which is why I say "nationalise" very carefully, and under strict , tranparent legislation.

As one other poster (Dr. Ki I think?) mentioned, the abolishment of politicians immunity to prosecution would be a good precursor to this.

G

Gargole:
I think your assessment connects the dots in a way to paint a picture which is not exactly the case. At the end of the day, Enron, Fannie/Freddie, AIG, LTCM et al, are companies which were not out to fleece anyone. The choose an business plan which at it's inception worked but because models could never take into account every economic factor lead to ruin. LTCM back in the late 90's was run by some of the best economic minds, with at least 1 noble prize winner. At the end of the day, all of these companies have to answer to shareholders /investors, explaining why unfavorable news is hidden until it's too late.

To lump these economic disasters in with the Madoffs of the world is fundamentally incorrect. Look deeper into this current economic mess and you will see behind it all the real culprit is the government which wanted to increase home-ownership amongst the poor, nice idea right. This forced business to come up with business models, ultimately flawed, which made money for their shareholders/investors. Government got us into this mess, government will not get us out of it either by passing more restrictive measures.

Gargoyle: I really don't relish saying this, but if you believe that things like Fannie/Freddie - and even Enron - are examples of "capitalism without regulation" we can't really have a conversation, because you simply don't know what you are talking about. These are/were either government-run enterprises (Fannie/Freddie), or enterprises (like Enron) that were invovled in heavily-regulated industries in which "regulatory arbitrage" was the key to profits. Meanwhile, it is the (deposit-taking) banks and insurance companies - both of which are heavily regulated - which are suffering most in the current storm among financial companies. So again, I don't want to be meanie, but some of your baseline "facts" clash with reality to the point that I think you may be in a little over your head here.

Standard and Poor says we have poor standards.

@Stan - you just made my day. :)

With all due respect Erik, anyone who claims to have a grasp of the current crisis and how to get out of it is "in over their head." I have yet to see concensus on how long this will last, let alone how it will be avoidable in the future.

My original statement remains; that capitalism unfettered is not a healthy option and needs re-thinking.

Regulation may have abounded as you say, but was it the right regulation, was it transnational rather than national (the City in London was a direct recipient of Sarbanes for example,)did it allow enough tranparency for people to see the full picture (it took RBS three goes at telling the truth!)

My point is not as simple as capitalism evil, socialism good - I don't believe this is true, but their needs to be a more global approach to a global ecomony and regulation should mirror this. I believe this reflects current thought and not just my rhetoric.

As this is not an economy blog, and I claim no economics expertise at all, I am happy to be in over my head, I am happy to learn from those who have more knowledge. If you are not willing to engage in conversation with those who you believe less aware of the facts/issues, why have a blog?

Respectfuly,

G

@Garg: Actually, on the crisis I am pretty confident in being an insufferable know-it-all, as I have an unusually deep background in the issues of banking/sovereign debt crises (sounds implausible, but it is true) and I have been doom-mongering about the markets for several years. Of course, I can't say I called the crisis exactly the way it has played out, but I think I was/am close enough to crow. But you are of course correct in what seems to be your (scaled-back) central point, which is that bad regulation is a recipe for disaster. I wouldn't argue for a second with you here, and I don't think most other gung-ho free-marketeers would. In other words, it's a non-issue. And no, of course I don't want to shut down an important conversation: I just felt like beating some sense into you. :)

Oh, and I never said I had a grasp of how to get out of the current crisis - because there is no way out. Debt-fueled asset bubbles are like cocaine benders: when the blow runs out, there's always gonna be a lot of pain and misery. All you can do is try not to do anything that might make the drying-out worse or longer - like adding meth to the mix - and try to remember how sucky it was the next time you consider going on a jag. What sucks the hardest about this particular bender as compared to prevoius ones is that it took place just as places like the EU and the US needed to be more sober than ever, to defuse their pension time bombs. Bad scene, and even possibly a civilization-ender.

Erik

Happy to receive an "economy beat-down" from someone who knows what they are talking about.

As a self-confessed non-expert, I am happy to scale back and alter my thinking, it's part of the learning process as far as I am concerned- my ego can handle it! :-)

I think talking about global and Hungarian issues in the same post is partially to blame, as I think that, here, the issues are compacted and complicated by the behaviours of those we should trust.

Don't get me wrong, I love the blog and debate here and even more so when I come across new information and viewpoints that are different to mine.

G

@Garg: That's the spirit. One more perhaps non-obvious point I'd make before getting back to other stuff is that the real catchphrase that is missing from critiques of the current crisis is the one that is so over-used in other, primarily environmentally-related contexts: "sustainability." The key test in deciding whether an economic/social policy or trend is good or bad is not necessarily whether you agree with its ultimate aims, but whether it can be sustained over the long haul. The global boom of the last few years was probably good for most people while it lasted; it just wasn't sustainable. Same with many/most of the counter-ideas offered by people of a more social-democratic mindset; no one ever seems to sit down and try to honesty figure out if they can be sustained over the long-run. The potentially civilization-ending crisis we are currently facing, in my opinion, is the simultaneous end-games of two unsustainable systems: a massive debt "super-cycle"/asset bubble in the private sector, and even more massive inter-generational public-sector wealth-transfer apparatuses that are essentially big Ponzi schemes. (Most state pension systems in the developed world will go bust decades before today's new graduates get their first checks, even if tax rates are doubled.) We could easily get by one or the other of these nasty workouts without a social breakdown, but getting past both at once is going to be tough.

You know, the real problem is the whole political system is screwed up in Hungary. The Hungarian constitution, 1989-90, was only passed because the needed something, no one agreed on any aspect of it, but they needed something to get started so they figured they would fix it later, they haven't.
Everybody talks about Feri or Victor like everything is there fault or they could make it better, but neither one of them have any idea of what they are doing, they are just public figures for the parties that can speak (fairly) well, and make some of the people think that they know what they are doing. The parties run everything and my question is; who is at the center of the parties? Whoever runs the parties, whether it be foreign governments or big industries, they are the ones setting the policies for their benefits. Until the system changes, and leaders are elected individually and held accountable for their actions by the people, things will not change. And one of the first step is for the media to educate the people on a non-bias level because even the citizens of Hungary are being kept in the dark about their political system. Of course, in Hungary, if the media were to report honestly, they would be shut down, (one way or another).
And the saddest thing in Hungary, the people we depend on the most for public safety, for educating our children, and providing us with "quality" medical care, are paid little more then minimum wage and provided with sub-standard facilities, while our "politicians" earn excessive pay from several more than one source and do nothing. Politicians should consider it an honor to serve their country, without a gun, and should only receive minimum wage plus verifiable expenses.
Am I upset? YES. The government past and present is doing nothing but fattening their pockets and those of the party (???) At this rate they will probably end up selling Hungary to the highest bidder.
Oh, and how many in Parliament do you think converted their forints to Euros when it was around 170-1 a few months ago? That would be interesting to know.

Erik: “if you believe that things like Fannie/Freddie - and even Enron - are examples of "capitalism without regulation" ... you simply don't know what you are talking about. These are/were either government-run enterprises (Fannie/Freddie), or enterprises (like Enron) that were invovled in heavily-regulated industries in which "regulatory arbitrage" was the key to profits.” Actually Erik, Gargoyle seems to be the one who knows what he's talking about, and this is certainly not my field, but though F/F were government run (not well), they are not government enterprises, as they were created to be. A government run private enterprise! Just what we had here before 1990! But Hungary's had far better results. (State) OTP home loans to Hungarians were fairly well run, and not predatory. “Farcically regulated by the Department of Housing and Urban Affairs, Fannie and Freddie were run into the ground by taking on very shaky mortgages under the command of CEOs and their top executives who paid themselves enormous sums.” Ralph Nader, http://www.counterpunch.org/nader09102008.html "It was a scam of Biblical proportions and now it is all starting to unravel. Bush's "ownership society" was a cheap parlor trick engineered by the Fed's low interest rates to trigger massive speculation and shift wealth from one class to another. Michael Hudson, former wall street economist. http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson07152008.html
You wrote yourself “US gov't encouraged reckless lending and borrowing”. Well exactly! Who lobbied for that encouragement? The FED, the mortage industries, securities and investment industries.
And the investment and the mortage industry drive each other. And because real estate investment is more often speculation, it is not sustainable growth, and so “investors' (speculators) flood the “underdeveloped” (less saturated) markets of Eastern Europe and the rest of the “underdeveloped” world. Hudson quotes the Wall Street Journal:“What taxpayers need to understand is that Fannie and Freddie already practice socialism, albeit of the dishonest kind. Their profit is privatized but their risk is socialized.” And this is only one example. Gargolye called it extreme capitalism. Hudson calls it Real Estate Finance Socialism. Socialism for the super rich. And this is exactly how Marx said capitalists behave.

And the people responsible for the crisis are in control of solving it. Corruption institutionalised, much like Hungary.

One of the major problems in the US is the FNMA program- a US Federal government Program formerly run by Obama main advisor Franklin Raines; it is 10 TRILLION$ in debt now assumed by the US government/taxpayor. The only countries that have ever prospered and contributed to innovation, economic growth were capitalist nations. The US used to grow at 10%/year when govt was 1% of the economy. Obama's govt represents nearly 50%!! of the economy. The Austrian/(hungarian) School of economics predicts catastrophe in this scenario. Here it is. The average hungarian has only 600$ in debt; nothing. The Hungarian govt? 150% of GDP! This cant work. Never has. If you believe communism/socialism works, vote for communism! but give me one example where it has worked. It even destroyed the most productive people in the world (east germany, north korea). Never fear. Hungary will continue with socialism. Yet the people will wonder perpetually, why are we poor? When the question has been answered 100 years ago by its own Autro(hungarian) School of Economics (vonHayek, LudwigvonMises, etc.). Read, study, learn, grow. I kills me to see hungarians mired in poverty with no hope (yet all the talent).

Who is overtly attacking the eastern european financial markets? No secret: wall street banks/hedge funds- in fact they are boasting of it. Where did they get the money since they were insolvent a few months ago? Obama/orszag/summers/geitner via the US Treasury/govt. There is your Socialism. Now enjoy it Hungary, Poland,etc. You love Obama? get knowledge, read,etc. Socialism works? And Hungarians hated Bush. Haheheheheh

Stan's Pestiside Address:

One score and zero years ago our fathers brought forth a gangster change in this country.
They wanted capitalism, but we didn't have the "capital" and no useful "ism" either. It was a screw-up of epic proportions. We gave up what we needed for stuff we wanted, and ended up with nothing. Less than nothing to be exact. What were they thinking? Turn on the free market switch and start a capitalist system on the foundation of socialist bureaucracy and corruption? Paying "reparations" left and right, selling, stealing and giving away everything of value, then borrowing like it's going out of style. Hungary had a great chance and we blew it big time. It would have been so much easier to take it slow and careful at the start then it is now, trying to restore the country from the ruins. We maxed out our credit, sold our resources, lowered our social standards to a much lower level than 20 years ago.
Now what? We cannot even start from nothing any more, nothing is so far above our reach. Replacing a few politicians will not do, major surgery needed, but I don't see any doctors in the house.
Clean out the Parliament, send the government packing, disqualify all current and former party members from ever entering politics, hold a general election, only independent representatives, elected by the people. Pull the names out of a hat if there are no volunteers, still better than the rule of party mafias. Introduce the system of responsibility and accountability, with multiple checks and balances. Rewrite the constitution, remove immunity, add the right to self defense, and irrevocable free speech. If you need any advice, I'm here all week.

@Tunde: You might find this odd, but I agree with pretty much everything you've said: What we most certainly are seeing is a system in which the profits are privatized and the losses are socialized. Problem is, as long as you allow the state to get so big it becomes the key to success in business, you'll end up with this no matter who is in charge. Therefore, I say we put aside our differences, get together with Stan and liquidate the state.

Good idea Stan. But what we really have to ask ourselves is how do we do this? What's the first step? We can't exactly have an violent uprising anymore (they're would be too much world condemnation and who wants to be a pariah state for decades afterwards like Cuba), mass protests ala the Orange Revolution might do it but I'm personally doubtful (it didn't really seem to help much in the Ukraine - all the main players are still the same at the end of the day) or voting for a party that promises to give up the power it has after it has acheived these purposes (you and me both know they wouldn't do that afterwards, they like the taste of the gravy-train too much). None of these seem to be clever options. But is there a way of turning the existing legal and constitutional framework upon itself so that it acheives these aims, despite the will of the powers that be?

So I'm going to use your kind offer of being here all week to ask a question and get your views and opinions on it.

As far as I know the Constitutional Court is where this drama of ending all this mismanagement should be played out. 250,000 signatur petition, overcoming opposition in the courts, referendum, winning campaign, constitution change, remove immunity from prosecution from politicians, implementation of said removal of prosecution.

Because I think could be the first step we need to take, not a later step, to acheive a more perfect democracy and better society for all who live in Hungary.

Your thoughts on this proposal please?

Extreme capitalism, International Socialism, Communism, Kibutzism, National Socialism, Liberals for free enterprise...Argue a point to have any one of these but, if you have a bunch of wankers at the helm, the result will always be the same -catastrophe!
We've got GF and his gang, the MSZP, leading us into oblivion..and, what's even worse - no future prospect of ever finding a way out of the current debacle...
CUJimmy

Dr Ki. You are intelligent and your ideas are sound. Stan, is another, who warrants my respect.
But don't expect Stan to come up with ready-made answers to resolve the current crisis.
It is up to young people like you to organise demonstrations, write political criticism, challenge the out-moded system in Hungary.
I support you one hundred per cent, and, I am in agreement with most of what Stan, says.

The anger and outrage against the current government on these pages is testament enough, that change is needed. You are the first person I've heard that goes beyond just criticising.
Positive action is the next step. Good luck!!!!

Stan, you are here all week!? You describe the current crisis both articulately, and accurately.
Hungary has had another chance over these past two years. A a lot of foreign investment and new projects on the table.Most of them now have been either, cancelled altogether, put on hold, or, investors have run away screaming at the thought of losing any more money because of corruption and maladministration.
I am trying to create a positive view of Hungary. Especially in the tourist area of Lake Balaton. In the hope that local and foreign businesses will invest. It is an uphill struggle for all the reasons you have outlined.
Doc Ki looks to you for the answers? The people of Hungary look for a miracle. Twenty years..and the opportunities have been squandered like melting ice cream in a child's hands.
Everyone I speak to wants to sell their house and get out. Needlessly so in my opinion. Hungary is a great country and has a surplus of talented people. Unfortunately, we keep getting shit on from a great height!!

The great height of the top of the Parliament building, to be metaphorically precise. I wish Gyurcsany to be run over by one of those fucking Combinos.

Mariska,
You wish Gy. death, I wish him life - in prison, with no possibility of parole.

Dr. Ki / Wolfpack,

Major changes must come from the people, we cannot expect our current set of politicians and parties to vote themselves out of power. The question is, how to reach people and convince them to support a grassroots movement. How to restore faith and cut through general apathy. If we can do that, then it would be best to try a peaceful change, a violent uprising may make things even worse. Collect a million signatures and see if that works. You need a lot of young, intelligent and enthusiastic folks to do that, so we're obviously in an uphill battle, but it's worth a try. Write up a brief but convincing program, spread it over the internet and find volunteers to take it to the streets.

Erik: I wrote that corporations have corrupted, and taken over the state, and you say “so get rid of the state”! This is when I see libertarians as irrational. How about getting rid of what corrupted it, and restore the state's original goal, to protect the people against such things like (pyschopathic and predatory) corporate interests? Yes large bureaucracies are bad, as in Kafka's brilliant novel The Castle, and in business too. The goal is to have small, transparent and democratically elected autonomous local government, a strong civil sphere and a strong, small central government working for the people. And to make communities and people much more economically independent, with a strong middle class. And you need a moral minimum.

"The goal is to have small, transparent and democratically elected autonomous local government, a strong civil sphere and a strong, small central government working for the people." I think I have never heard it put so well. I only rage against the state more than corporations because I think the modern "leviathan" state is more of a barrier to this nice vision than overreaching for-profit firms. But sure, giant companies are a menace as well, especially (as we are seeing now in the financial sector) when they become "too big to fail." It's just that, at least in Hungary's case, I honestly think that Western multinationals are pretty much the most progressive, honest and constructive large institutions around. But I can understand how this feeling would not be universal, especially if someone is concerned with issues of ethnic/tribal identity, which always gets diluted when you have lots of trade across borders...

@Tünde, "The goal is to have small, transparent and democratically elected autonomous local government, a strong civil sphere and a strong, small central government working for the people." Yeah, like that's every going to happen in Hungary of all the countries. Who's going to make that happen? Fidesz? Jobbik? MDF? Bunch of useless bureaucrats or amateurs. Let's try and keep our feet on the ground here and use what we have.

Erik, both are barriers, reform both. And yes people concerned with ethnic identity don't tend to like multinationals, because they often destroy ethnic identity. And ethnic identity is often diluted by trade, it doesn't have to be. There was trade and ethnic identity before there were multinationals. But multis also destroy small and medium enterprise, not unrelated, which should be the backbone of society. (And there are Hungarian companies which would like to be honest, it is just very difficult to do and make a living.) Multis look honest and progressive, but they really are not. Why do they outsource for instance? Because labor is so much better elsewhere? I don't think so. CocaCola is the No. 1 MNC right? At the moment they are trying to get the Chinese to stop drinking green tea. Not illegal, but not very moral either.

sheesh, that was the goal, I wrote. Although I do not think Hungary less corrupt than the US, it is just more obvious here. Use what we have. Well maybe some people are: http://lehetmas.hu/celjaink.

@Tunde: I very much disagree with this vaguely post-modern idea that corruption is only "more obvious" in a place like Hungary than in somewhere like the US, Finland or whatever. While there is obviously corruption in these more Western places, there is simply far more here than there, on all levels - just like there is far more corruption in, say, Armenia or Nigeria than in Hungary. Moreover, crooked politicians and business-types routinely get caught and go to jail in America, and not just the "little fish" like Zuschlag. So it ain't the same story at all, and the fact that so many people here think it is may be one of the reasons we never make any progress here on getting rid of corruption.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Obamawama says as he changes his mind from one day to the next. What he says today, well, he will have a different take on it tomorrow!

Tunde - Coke's sells Heaven & Earth tea in addition to their usual garbage. You need to visit China before commenting.

Corruption is rife in Hungary. It is a national pastime. I see it, everybody tells me it is so.
Bribery, tax evasion, public money unaccounted for. IMF loans and EU aid:large sums of cash disappearing..even private investment payments go astray. Misappropriation of funds on a grand scale. And still Gyurcsany is out with the "begging bowl".
MSZP and Fidesz will not change their spots overnight. And both are "guilty" for not introducing the badly-needed reforms that will lift Hungary out of its current demise.
Change can only be achieved by the people in a combined effort with demonstrations,petitions, personal crusades, and newspapers being brave enough to report fraud and embezzlement, that will lead ultimately to the guilty parties being put in the "slammer" for a very long time.
Every Hungarian has to make a special effort now, and sustain it, to bring about the badly-needed political, social, and economic reforms. Hungary is a great country and has talented, and hard-working people. But Hungary gets the "shitty end" of the stick every time. Why? BAD GOVERNMENT! It's time for CHANGE..And I don't mean Orban, either.

It is a shame on Obama, try to blame the whole crisis on a small country like Hungary, he seems to forget where this whole downturn has started ...I'm disappointed

Mr Pepsi: Oh CocaCola sells tea too, in China. Now that is something the Chinese really needed CocaCola for. And so that makes it allright then, then that they are agressively trying to change Chinese drinking habits and make them, especially the children drink Coke, instead of green tea. And then you will see the Chinese hit with the health problems that Hungarians and Koreans have with high sugar, and Hungarians had poor enough diet before Pepsi was brought here, by the „communists”, when we still had „communism”. We have lots of high quality mineral water in Hungary. Then CocaCola bought some, called NaturAqua and is part of that imported stupid bottled water trend. And they got the EU to finance their bottling plant in Zalaszentgrót, (socialism for the rich) because it is a depressed region, and then (typical) lied in their marketing and said the water was from the Balaton felvidék. But still better than what they do in India where CocaCola is using the little water they have to make that junk, and then they flood farmland with toxic runoff. But maybe they will sell tea in India too, so that will make it okay. You need to think before commenting.

Erik, Zuschlag? The US has an entire system of legal, institutionalised corruption, and you compare it to party funds embezzlement? „James A. Johnson ran Fannie for most of the 1990s and was its main lobbyist. Until June he headed Barack Obama’s vice-presidential search team, but resigned when it was revealed that he got mortgages on unrealistically favorable terms from Angelo Mozilo’s notorious Countrywide Financial.” „it is for their wealthy financial clients that Congressional hearts are bleeding, not for the victims of subprime mortgage fraud and the associated Wall Street fraud in packaging junk mortgages and selling them to institutional investors at home and abroad.” „Congressional banking committee heads are simply behaving as politicians traditionally do by giving priority to their major campaign contributors in the financial and real estate sectors.” Hudson again. „Now Treasury is committed, the leadership in this area will not deviate from a pro-insider policy for large banks;” Simon Johnson: nakedcapitalism.com. And didn't the head of the Treasury cheat on his taxes? In addition to being a former FED bank director? And that is only finance industry, there are also weapons, pharmaceutical, and oil lobbies. You can believe there is less corruption in the US if you want, which is why there will be no progress in getting rid of it there.

@Tunde: I think the problem is that we are using different definitions for the word "corruption." When I said Hungary was more corrupt than the US, I was referring to the traditional meaning of corruption, which involves the breaking of laws. While I often agree with the idea that "The scandal isn't what's illegal; it's what's legal" - and certainly in the cases you mention - it is still important to draw a distinction between the two kinds of sleaze, and the inability to do prevents one from tackling either type.

@Tunde - get fucked! We dont need some brainless Hungarian to tell us what we should drink.

@Tünde: More local government? More? And do Hungarians trust Hungarians? Mmmm... No, No, No. Hungarians don't trust Hungarians, don't want more government (over 80% want less and have already said so if you bother to read all the news sources). And unlike you they trust the EU more than their own (Orbán or the Gyurcsány variety). Look, you can read all about it yourself from one of the news sources that is on your pre-approved list: http://www.mno.hu/portal/621287

In brief, they would like to transfer more decision making and power to Brussels 'cos they can't trust their own. Ouch, now that has to sting.

n.b. I haven't forgotten any of my other obligations to answer your previous half-baked points, don't worry.

Erik: I am not quite sure why you think there is a difference, unless that one is legal and the other illegal. I recognise both clearly, and although I think most Americans do not understand what is actually happening with the new (and old) legislation, I do not see how them understanding it would help to tackle it, the US system is to obviously far gone. I have little hope for Hungary either, recognising it is not getting us very far.

Vándorló: I see that you have adhered to your promise for cultured discourse. Yes I am aware that Hungarians mistrust their own, particularly in Hungary and I do not have to read any polls to know that. If you had an idea of post WWII history in the eastern bloc you would know that the first thing communists did was to corrupt and breed distrust, and turn on friend, family on family. That has produced generations of Hungarians who do not trust eachother, and as the research I noted which you ridiculed, may even be now ingrained. There was a chance in 1990 to turn time back, but then “disaster capitalism” (Noemi Klein) hit. Nb: As your responses are on the same level of intellect and culture as Mr Pepsi's, don't bother.

@Tünde: "as the research I noted which you ridiculed" You quoted a BBC story about how people's physiology was changing (ears modifying to auditory messages etc...) to match their environment. I noted that this was nonsense and that the BBC are, on the whole, pathetic at reporting on or understanding science. I say more about your sources elsewhere.

"...may even be now ingrained." This only shows your ignorance and lack of any basic ability to logically think through what you are saying. You believe behaviour results in biological changes. Well, perhaps, but 20 years is by modern reckoning less than a generation (current estimates for what counts as a generation in the western world vary from between 28-35 years, though historically this would be roughly 20 years per generation). Genetic information can only be encoded in the genotype in response to environmental selection across generations. As at most there have been 3 generations since the start of communism up to now, you must be talking nonsense. The 'ingraining' is a long way away yet. So look for another excuse.
Now, if you simply reduce your ignorance to talking about cultural transmission of information and that of memetic (not to be confused with mimetics, though cognitively their interplay is interesting) then you may be making more sense. But I am not going to provide you with the argument you don't have the intelligence to muster yourself.
"As your responses are on the same level of intellect and culture as Mr Pepsi's, don't bother." Last time you said "don't bother" and I didn't bother you came back and started whinging again (cultural ingrained trait?). I am bothering, so wind you neck in.
Just accept it, Hungarians don't want your form of government, they like consumerism even if they don't like paying the fully price of capitalism which means 1. Being allowed to fail as well as succeed 2. Competition where patronage might not do you any favours 3. Immigration and emigration, so your country has to be attractive both to those born into it and to those that wish to invest in it. etc...
I note that you never even bother to mention that capitalism and consumerism are two separate things.
I don't understand why you pretend to hate the communists. It's you that wants the old order back, even though few others do.
And how about the +80% that want a reduction in the size of government. How do you explain their unhappiness. Are you going to force the gittegylet on them anyway?

Vándorló: you really do twist arguments, but I see it your modus operandi. That research was related to other research I cited which argues that values such as trust are transferred from generation to generation and can be influenced, negatively, from outside sources, such as a truly evil regime like the one we had. And yes 3 generations are enough. I never said I wanted the former regime back, which, for your information, and you really seem to need a lot of it, was not communism. But at least we knew that, people think that what goes for capitalism here is capitalism and neoliberal globalisation is certainly very much connected with consumerism, for that is what it best feeds on. And my comments on MNCs where to the people who defend them. I did not say more local government, I said stronger, and I am not talking about Budapest either. You don't have any idea what Hungarians wanted 20 years ago, and you could live here for the rest of your miserable life, taking a job from a local, because I really doubt what you do here is any sort of added skill, but you will never, ever understand Hungary. And if you think that Hungary, and the world is embracing neoliberal (consumer) globalisation with no amount of coercion, you are more of an idiot than I thought. I said not to bother, because your arguments, as with the one with Visitor and what C'estMoi takes as you “winning” (blast of obscenities) are more ad hominem than substance.

@Tünde: Well, I don't mind stories taking a twist, or you trying to pass off a pig in a poke, so let's follow your latest vignette.
Apart from anti-western/capitalist/monetarist/consumerist/american/british/funny-foreigners/darkies/minorities.... literature, do you ever read any anthropology books? Heard of Colin Turnbull's controversial ethnographic work, or anyone else's, looking at dramatic cultural and social change?
Let's ignore what you have said previously about the genetic inheritance of the Roma and their cultural behaviour, so you are now following the lead I gave you: "..values such as trust are transferred from generation to generation..." Yes, cultural transmission, not genetic. Does this only work for Hungarians in your books or are the Roma included? The reason I ask is that I just wonder, how long you think it will take to unlearn this behaviour? The them vs us culture, how long will that last? The protekcionizmus, how long will that take? The them vs us culture does that pre-date communism? The protekcionizmus does that pre-date communism? The trust of neighbours, outsiders etc... does that pre-date communism? Let's see what you know.
"I did not say more local government, I said stronger" Hungarians don't want either. They don't trust each other do what's best for the community and common good rather than line their own pockets. Hungarians are sick of your own crappy politics and politicians, they are sick of people like you who tell them what to do from a distance. They want to live simple lives, free of hassle, watching TV and raising their kids in decent schools with a better standard of living. They don't want people like you telling them how they should live and why things are bad for them. They want less hassle. They want less government not more. They want government to disappear into the background instead of being rammed down their throats 'cos they can't get simple things done otherwise.
So, since you are so keen to know so much about me, answer one question I asked you, simply and directly. Stop the avoidance and cowardice and answer this one question. You said you knew I was British. Now, tell me how? what is is about what I say that shows you I am British?
n.b. Yes, it is a trap, but none the less, try to answer honestly. None of your usual crap.

Tunde comes across as a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming freight train. She
a. See the world through a communist telescope similar to Russian socio-economists from 2 decades ago, conveniently avoiding or leaving out any information which they dont understand.
b. Bitches about anything which exposes the weaknesses within Hungarian (or Russian) society, culture and capabilities, while simultaneously blaming these on 'external' influences.
c. Espouses solutions which no rational person would regard as credible, since she comes across as knowledgable as a Klansman with an 8th grade education.
d. Is irrelevant to any present and future decision makers because her biased proposed solutions benefit only a small segment (probably her own)
e. Has no practical skills which are sufficiently developed to implement a working model or prototype of what she is hoping to create.
f. Has no persuasive skills to mobilize her countrymen along the path she wants.
g. Is bitter, because all the other deer have either already crossed the tracks, or are waiting for the train to pass.
If you cant cope with the changing world, either leave it, or move to the Galapagos islands and live off the guano. The giant tortoises might be interested in what you have to say, but I wouldn't count too much on that. They probably understand more about the world.

"The goal is to have small, transparent and democratically elected autonomous local government, a strong civil sphere and a strong, small central government working for the people. And to make communities and people much more economically independent, with a strong middle class. And you need a moral minimum."
-szerintem is

Tunde, you have tendered the perfect diagnostic term, 'institutional corruption' for the staggering swindles we see in the 'developed' Anglo-Saxon world. One need look no further than the ongoing 'bailout' of banks (UK and US) to appreciate just how profoundly insitutionalised this corruption is -- so profoundly, in fact, that there is no recourse against it. We cannot heal it with a change of government: one political party here is like any other political party; all serve the same gangsters, as do all media outlets (which the gangsters own, anyway). Strange as it may sound, I envy you in Hungary. You have, and are grasping, an opportunity to turf out your gangsters, and to construct a decent society, which, with luck, will resemble the Nordic states more closely than it does Anglo-saxon ones. God bless.