American Embassy Again Warns Americans to Stay Away from American Embassy

Lol. These nonviolent activists can be really dangerous. But to be honest, I can't the imagine civil unrest caused by the most well known nonviolent organization. What could we do? Jump over the storm troopers and the fences, dodge the bullets of the guards, brake into the building and hug the cleaning lady?
Anyway, good to know that we're the biggest threat to the security of the US... :+)

Hmm, how is the placement of a radar system in the Czech Republic relevant to the Hungarian Humanist movement?

Hey, I thought his holiness Barack (Praise be upon Him!) O'bama had said that he was reconsidering the plan to place the sites in CEE?

Russia had also pulled back from their plans to aim missiles at us to counter balance -no?

So is this a demonstration against something that looks like it isn't happening - if so, it could be the perfect storm; as when there's nothing solid to actually moan about is when things get really nasty around here...

Hi! as you say: "looks like"! I think its important to put a sign, and strengthen all activity against such radar systems, and promote peace and nonviolence! http://www.worldmarchforpeace.org/

@Will: there is a similar ongoing project in south Hungary. We want any foreign troops out of Hungary, and Hungarian soldiers should return home.

Lorenzo, thats understandable, and in fact, if it was a protest about a planned installation in Hungary, I wouldn't comment. Just pointing out that i found it a bit amusing that the Hungarians were protesting a planned installation in a foreign country. As for the US military presence, do you know anyone who lived in Kaposvar during the US presence at Taszar? They'll tell you that for the most part, it was fantastic for the economy as the soldiers spent their money in the area, and the Hungarians employed by KDMP, some of whom are still employed by them in Kuwait and Iraq. I take it then that you don't approve of Hungary's involvement in Nato? Granted, the Hungarian army from what I gather isn't really prestigious anymore, though they do have those nifty Saab Gripens, kind of expensive though.

Military installations of such magnitude affect all countries in the area, so if some Hungarians oppose a NATO vs. Russian Empire confrontation, it's quite understandable.
I don't know why Hungary had to jump from the Varsaw Pact straight into NATO. I suppose being independent and neutral would not work for our leaders who are always ready and willing to sell us out.
The state has an obligation to protect its citizens, but it's been largely ignored. We have an inadequate police force, practically no army and no National Guard or similar. We don't have the right to bear arms, so we're pretty much left with nothing. Gyurcsany promised lousy 2 billion to the police budget, and he just donated a generous 3 billion to some shady foundation in the US, in memory of an anti-Hungarian congressman. So much for priorities...

(Cartman Voice) BLOODY HIPPIES!

1) A Missile Defense System that covers half Europe is a European topic I think. That's the point, because the old US government tried to build a system that effects a dozen countries based only on the permission of two countries (Czech and Poland). The aim of the campaign is (now for more than a year) to bring it to the EP and ask for a common European decision about it. That's why in this day there were many protest in the same time in many countries.
2) Yes, there were some positive news about Obamas point of view about the system and there were some worrying news from other sources of the US government. So in this event we supported the plans about canceling and opposed the plans about continuing.
3) Yes, we have some "minor" problems with our participation in the NATO, but they would be longer than this comment box...

Ohh, and shit: we forgot to cause civil unrest. There were some people on the BKV who were shocked and thougth: "What are these bunch of weirdos want and why are they dressed in white clothes and why have they white faces?", but I think that doesn't count as highly dangerous activity. :+)

Cool, so when's the planned anti-nuclear event outside the Iranian Embassy? Or should we plan the march to stop there AND the Pakistani embassy - after suspending their military operations in the North West of Pakistan against Islamic extremists, the militants there are now within 100 miles of nuclear capability.

Now,that doesn't mean I favour a missile system in CEE either, or any country's participation in NATO; but I do think these threats need a plan, and I don't see a better solution than NATO right now.

"when's the planned anti-nuclear event outside the Iranian Embassy".

Iran doesn't have any nuclear weapons. Anti-nuclear protests should be held at the Israeli Embassy instead. No one is safe as long as Israel is allowed to play with nukes.

Hey Stan, there is another good reason for you to oppose a US missile shield for Central Europe: Iran might decide to nuke Hungary to get at the evil Hebrews holed up here. Sure, it would turn this corner of the Carpathian Basin into a smoking hole glowing with radioactive waste, but at least it would be a Jew-free smoking hole glowing with radioactive waste. Seems like a small price to pay, no?

Erik,
So when did you become an advocate of exterminating Jews? You should be ashamed.

I could never hurt anyone. Ending diplomatic relations with Israel should be enough to be safe from the non-existing Iranian nukes. Unless someone finds the WMD in Iraq...

@stan
"Iran doesn't have any nuclear weapons."

You know this for sure do you?

To be honest, whatever personal issues you have with Israel is your business, everyone has a right to their opinion, but do you truly consider Israel a greater threat to Hungary and Europe than Islamic extremism?

I am asking this simply because I am curious how someone of your political ideology prioritizes what they would address first.

We talked about the PLANNED placing of missiles being a topic that concerns all of Europe, East to West and yet the spread of Islamic Extremism is effecting the security of Europe as a whole in a much greater way, resulting in real deaths and real attacks.

Whilst your right to hate jews is your privelige in an open democracy - do you honestly think that removing Israel from the map will appease the people who are killing as an tenant of their faith any Kaffir (that's you and I) simply because he does not follow the Quaran?

Not all muslims are terrorists, not all Israelis are Zionsist; how is it you have managed to sort out your "priorities" so effectively? Sure you're not missing something?

Gargoyle,

I am more worried about Israel than Iran. For a tiny country, Israel has way too much influence over world politics, don't you think?
I believe that "Islamic extremism" is the result of decades of clumsy US foreign policy. We have managed to make enemies of billions of Muslims in order to support a failed experiment, called Israel. Try to do what most Americans are incapable of, and put yourself in place of a Palestinian or Afghan or Iraqi who lost their families and everything they had to western or Israeli aggression. What would you do?
I strongly believe that Islam is not a real threat, as long as we treat them with respect, leave them alone, and under no circumstances allow them to immigrate in large numbers to Europe and the USA. That's the recipe. Separate but equal.
We all know if they tried anything funny, we have more than enough military might to crush them, but it's not necessary if we make peace with them and do what I said above.
No, I don't particularly support Islam or any other religion, especially state religions, I just want to live in a better world. "Islamic extremism" is the boogeyman that buys votes for bad US Middle-East policy. We should know better.

Thanks for your response stan.

"I am more worried about Israel than Iran. For a tiny country, Israel has way too much influence over world politics, don't you think?"

Actaully I don't, I think it's power is just that of the US by proxy. If every surrounding country hadn't threatened its existence from inception, perhpas it woudl not need its weaponry? As the only democratically "on-side" country in a region full of resources, I am not supprised that "western" powers want to keep it safe.

"I believe that "Islamic extremism" is the result of decades of clumsy US foreign policy. We have managed to make enemies of billions of Muslims in order to support a failed experiment, called Israel"

"Yet the tenants of the quaran that justify killing kaffir pre-date the Us and Isreal by several hundred years. The UK/US have had a military presence in the middle east for hundreds of years, and more stratgeically so since oil became a needed commodity for industrial development.

"Try to do what most Americans are incapable of, and put yourself in place of a Palestinian or Afghan or Iraqi who lost their families and everything they had to western or Israeli aggression. What would you do?"

Stan, I can not lie, I would do the same - of course I would. I sympathise with the Palestinians and their situatuion. I would not though, expect Europeans to engage in terrorist activities and suicide bombing on behalf of Hungary if it were occupied. I feel that Palestine has become a banner to disguise a greater lust for power, land and resource by more powerful regimes; advertising itself as Jihad.

"I strongly believe that Islam is not a real threat, as long as we treat them with respect, leave them alone

Like in Afghanistan?

"We all know if they tried anything funny, we have more than enough military might to crush them, but it's not necessary if we make peace with them and do what I said above"

The greatest threat in the West is local converts to extremist Islam, so miltary would be useless here. I also, find it hard to make peace with people who stone a woman to death fro being raped, or rape a married woman to shame her into becoming a suicide bomber.

I feel this threat but I am also able to filter the extremist hate mongers from the rest of the muslim world. It's that ability that I miss in some of the discourse by yourself, HP et al.

Not everything is balck and white, but it seems you guys don't want to discuss the grey?

Gargoyle,

"the tenants of the quaran that justify killing kaffir pre-date the Us and Isreal by several hundred years."

We could also find similar passages in the Talmud. If we could just replace religions with common sense and common decency, we would be fine. Unfortunately it's not going to happen any time soon, so we'll just have to deal with religious extremism the best we can, and it's not by supporting one side against the other. It's time to remove all state support from religious organizations, and let the rules of civilized society overrule religious nonsense (see Sharia law in the UK and such).
I would not allow large numbers of religious Muslims in western countries. People who are willing to respect our culture and willing to assimilate are welcome, others would be asked to find other places that better suit their religious and ethnic needs. Mixing of races, religions and cultures may work in the USA (not very well though), but the nation states of Europe should be allowed to keep their roots and identity, there are more important things than limitless tolerance toward the intolerant.
Respect is the key. I would never think of going to Tel Aviv and demand the removal of Jewish religious symbols. So why do Jews come to the USA and make a stink about Christmas trees? The trees are not even religious symbols any more, Xmas is the season of shopping for gifts, why does it bother Muslims and Jews and others? Why 90% of the country must tolerate the intolerance of the 10%? So what I'm saying, keep the races, religions and cultures separate as much as possible, there's not one good reason to force the mixing of the unmixable.

"I strongly believe that Islam (Africans, Jews, Gypsies, whoever) is not a real threat, as long as we treat them with respect, leave them alone, and under no circumstances allow them to immigrate in large numbers to Europe and the USA. That's the recipe. Separate but equal."

This is why everything 160 IQ Stan should be iqnored at every turn. You read 3 or 4 things he writes which you might agree with then he throws you for this doozy. He doesn't give a damn about the Palestinians, just that they are fighting the Israelis, he would never let them be his neighbor. It clearly says so above.

He are a silly man-child who I am sure makes his mother weep for humanity, or whatever has not yet been twisted.

(Cartman Voice) HIPPIE FIGHT!

And the missle defence system was designed to stop incoming missles from where? Iran doesn't have the capability (yet) to deliver nuclear warheads by missle. Only Russia, USA, UK, France, China, Pakistan, India, Israel and North Korea have this capacity. So the missle screen would do nothing to defend Europe from 'rogue' states in the Middle East. It has three purposes: to protect USA from long range missles from Russia, to wind Putin up and to produce another money making scheme for the Haliburtons of this world. It's not in Europe's self-interest to have a half tested and not very good, Son of Star Wars system on the soil of any of it's inhabitants. It was only in the interest of Bush and his buddies. Maybe the Obamessiah will scrap it, maybe he won't. But let's tell our governments that we don't want it (even though they won't listen, but a protest is a fun day out for all the family).

Interestingly it seems that countries like the USA and UK are very scared of non-violent demonstrations nowadays. British Home Secretary Jackboot Jacqui would have tried to get all these humanists declared 'domestic, non-violent extremists', the preferred term in the UK for protestors at the moment, and have them all arrested without charge, tortured and put in Gitmo for several years.

Infidels!
Your so-called country (currently named Hungary) properly belongs under Islamic rule. The Prophet (PBUH) clearly conveyed the words of Allah in the holy Quran; once a land is conquered by the forces of righteousness it belongs to them forever.
You will soon be subjected to the rule of Islam, once again. You will be Dhimmi (Sura 9:29).
Once the Zionist Entity is disposed of the remaining Jews living in Palestine will be resettled in your pathetic Vilajet, the farthest one from the land of the three mosques.
Submit or you will be put to the sword.

@Ishmael - Assalaamualaikum. Hungary is already under the will of Allah. If Allah wanted the rule of Islam here, he(or she) would have made sure that Islam did not lose Hungary in the first place.
I already have sharia in my country, and I don't think much of it, even if I can live with it. The muslims in my country are a lot smarter than you are.
Now, get lost!

@Will

I hate to be precious, but I was sort of here first. Can you not pick out another handle? God knows there are plenty to choose from, but to throw you a bone - how about simply William? Or PolitiWill, Poor Man's Will, Mecha-Will, Will Post for Food, or The World At Will & Representation?

Hi Stan,

yes, you will find crap that is distasteful in any religion, including the Talmud, but my point was that, I am able to draw a line in my mind between the muslims who would kill non-belivers in Allah's name, and those who belive that murder is not sanctioned by the Koran.

I have yet to see this sanity applied to Israel or the Jewish people (or any monority come to that), to assume that all Jews are zionists, All Roma are thieves, is as idiotic as assuming all muslims are terrorists.

It is here that I think a decent dialogue can take place, and where the conversation shifts from racist black/white rhetoric and moves forward.

If you truly love Hungary (as I think you do) and think it deserves power, development and autonomy etc, then the sooner we start talking about what HUNGARIANS can do TODAY/TOMORROW, and less about what Trianon, Jews, Czigany, Israel, US, UK, did in years gone by , the better of the country will be.

The Hungarians, as far I know them, are smart, creative and brilliant people; I can't believe that every ill in the history of this country was ALWAYS the fault of others? All that tells me is how weak and gullible Hungarians were, and I don't think that's true!

Time to take it on the chin, don't forget the past, but definitely stop living in it, and move on to your "szebb jovott" - one that includes ANYONE who is of benefit to this country, regardless of race,religion or anything else.

Not sure some people can let go of the past long enough to grab the future though?

G

Dr Ki!

"Interestingly it seems that countries like the USA and UK are very scared of non-violent demonstrations nowadays. British Home Secretary Jackboot Jacqui would have tried to get all these humanists declared 'domestic, non-violent extremists', the preferred term in the UK for protestors at the moment, and have them all arrested without charge, tortured and put in Gitmo for several years"

Mate, the UK is a police state; even a Dutch MP couldn't get in to talk about his film (Fitna), cos the content was deemed to be "conducive to violence"? Mainly cos a non-elected Lord (Ahmed) threatened to get a mob of muslims to attack parliament.

It's all going pear shaped; gonna hide in Bp for a while longer.

K, I'll post from now on as Will G., instead of Will. Unless of course there's a Will G. posting.
btw, Gargoyleq is completely right about Isreal being the US by proxy, though I'll get back to that in a minute. Regarding the Isreali nuclear arsenal, they've never actually acknowledged that they did in fact have an arsenal, even Ehud Olmert in 2006, when giving an interview stated that "Iran openly, explicitly and publicly threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons as America, France, Israel, Russia?", and then claimed to be misquoted. Obviously, we all know they have WMD, but It's amusing how they handle it. I for one pretty much agree with Olmert's statement, as I personally feel that theres a reason that the US clearly defined the separation between church and state, the whole point being that religion is generally not based on rational thought, just emotion. Martin Luther had a great quote about that, something like let rational thought and fact not stand in the way of faith, or something like that.

Back to what Gargoyleq said, in the 60's and 70's, the wars between Isreal and their neighbors was more or less war by proxy between the US and the USSR, as evidenced by the technology on both sides, the MIG's, SAM's and tanks used by the Arab countries, and the various weapons used by the Isreali's. It's been said that at one point, Syria had the best SAM network in the world, with the Soviet Union giving them massive aid and "advisors" to test the capabilities of their new equipment.

Finally, Stan, you do remember whats on the Statue of Liberty, right? Give me your tired, etc etc. One of the things that made the US great was the way they allowed all immigrant groups. My parents emigrated to the US in the 70's, so I personally have to disagree with your statement, though, I will add a caveat, that the Immigrants should make more of an effort to learn English. Also, I've never seen Isreal, or the Jews for that matter push a jihaad on anyone, or ever publicly stating that they had the godgiven right to rule over another people. Isreal, the country is one thing, as the jews believe that God gave it to them, but, my point is, it's only Isreal. they've never gone on to say that other lands should be theirs, they've never attempted to conquer other lands. Don't mention the West Bank or the Golan please though in your rebuttal.

Achtung, achtung!
All Gypsy and Roma people!
We urge you to convert to Islam!
This is the only way to change your life for the better in your country. Hungarians hate you but Allah will love you, IF you willingly submit.
We are sending 24 Imams to the wretched prisons of Hungary to raise Roma awareness in Islam.
Convert and prosper!
It worked in many other countries.
Muslim Roma is the future of Hungary.

How profoundly stupid this (or any other ritual) is:

"The Islamic purification ritual, known in Arabic as "wudu," involves a 10-step process, which includes:

1. Praising Allah while washing both hands up to the wrist three times, making sure that the water reaches between fingers and under rings.

2. Rinsing out the mouth thoroughly three times, using the right hand (the one not used for cleaning private parts) to bring the water to the mouth.

3. Snorting water into the nostrils from the right hand, three times, to cleanse them of demons that Muslims believe reside there, clearing the passages of any mucous using the left hand.

4. Washing off the tip of the nose with the left hand.

5. Washing the entire face three times from right ear to left ear.

6. Continuing to wash from forehead to throat.

7. Washing the right arm and then the left arm, three times, from the wrist up to the elbow, removing watches.

8. Moving wetted palms over the head from the top of the forehead to the back of the head.

9. Passing the wetted tips of the fingers into the grooves and holes of both ears, and also passing the wetted thumbs behind the ears and ear lobes.

10. Finally, washing both feet to the ankles starting with the right foot, including between the toes, then reciting: "Ash-hadu an la ilaha illal lahu wa ashhadu anna Muammadan 'abduhu wa rasuluh" – meaning there is no god but Allah and he has no partners, and Muhammad is his servant and messenger."

Religious people are nuts...

Behead those who insult the Prophet (PBUH)!!!
Europe is the Cancer, Islam is the solution!

Ishmael,
Go back to Arabia or your cave in Afghanistan.
Maybe you should ask Stan to go with you.
I know you don't see eye-to-eye on the Gypsy situation and religion, but you still have a lot in common.
You both hate the Jews and Israel and show great concern for the Palestinians.
So have a nice chat in your cave then turn on your cell phone. Wait for the Hellfire missile coming from the Predator drone circling overhead.
Meet the 72 virgins in Heaven or in Jahannam.
Have a nice day. Salam.

Simpletons' book of double standards:

You're encouraged to hate ALL Muslims, (Germans, Japs, Arabs, etc.) and put them through hell as collective punishment, anything goes.

Having doubts in Israel's policies is strictly prohibited. A person who may engage in critical thinking must be labelled as an anti-semite, nazifascist enemy of the people.

There.

This is me!!!!
http://www.parom.hu/main.php?page=member_data&member_id=332365
I want to hear from you!!!!

Doktor Ki (v.12): "to wind Putin up and to produce another money making scheme for the Haliburtons of this world" And worse. It's the kind of non-stop in-your-face provocation that led to the Cuban missile crisis ('You are disturbed over Cuba. You say that this disturbs you because it is ninety miles by sea from the coast of the United States of America. But... you have placed destructive missile weapons, which you call offensive, in Turkey, literally next to us... I therefore make this proposal: We are willing to remove from Cuba the means which you regard as offensive... Your representatives will make a declaration to the effect that the United States ... will remove its analogous means from Turkey …' - Khrushchev, October, 1962) Aggression cum mass murder in South Ossetia run by the IDF… &, let's not forget that threatening Iran = threatening Russia... "Jackboot Jacqui would have… them all arrested without charge" 'Would?' Activists ARE arrested in 'preemptive raids' all over the place ('raids and detentions have targeted activists planning to protest... as well as journalists and videographers documenting police actions at protests… ' http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/1/st_paul_police_conduct_mass_pre Journalists are lucky if they are not *killed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNfxlAnGUZg nowadays The only safe journalist is an 'embedded' journalist (read whore) Compare that with the absolutely no, NADA, NEMO, NONE problems that we have had with Islam since 1699 that we are constantly told to be afraid of (by fake Ishmaels for example).

@ Visitor

Fear is the cheapest form of social cohesion available to the would be world leading governments. Since,at the end of the cold war, our prime source of "them v us" patriotism had dwindled to nothing.

If it weren't for the creation of extremist Islam (mm.., quaran or CIA text book?)and global warming, we would have nobody and nothing left to fear. We would have no way to justify expansion, land grabs, oil grabs or huge fund-channeling into the accounts of the only people left on the planet with a decent pension pay off ahead!

I forsee boom times down the road; Rising China - "avriation on commie theme with scary human rights atrocity merchants, nukes and strong economy"

Scary Russia " yes, they're back like in Rocky IV, but this time with cash and energy monopoly."

Dodgy Muslims " by popular demand, you can now be scared of a non-white race and finally feel good about your inherent racism."

Sing along now..

It's a wonderful world....

G

What made you use your Stalinist initials again, Друг Јосип? &, Allah just means God, doesn't it? So, why do you people keep saying Allah over and over again instead of just saying God when you discuss Muslims? Do you keep "othering" them so you can build them up as "our enemies?" Are you trying to sick us on them "Uncle Joe?" And, you do this knowing fully well that "Ishmael" is fake and he is not only a fake Ishmael but fake Hot Paprika as well and is in fact Nácivadász. Tell me it ain't so my friend... And, Gullenberg's in on it too, of course. And how! "Ishmael, Go back to Arabia or your cave in Afghanistan… [take Stan]… You both… show... concern for the Palestinians… [EVIL!] turn on your cell phone. Wait for the Hellfire missile…" :)) Wasn't this guy just preaching at us telling us what lousy racists we are and how we shouldn't hate and discriminate? This is funny, VERY FUNNY. What's even funnier is that I completely agree with his 'fear is a tool of political/mass manipulation' remarks. I mean TOTALLY :-))

Visitor, regarding fear and threats,
Stan said to Joe: "Remember, I know who you are, and I'm going to keep it confidential only as long as you don't give me a reason to publish it." (Politics.hu 'Roma leader blames politicians...' thread, February 14, 2009 11:24 PM).
Ricsi said to Joe: "Watch out for me at your next gay parade, I will be the one about to split your useless AIDS riddled skull. Buzi" (Same thread, same day, 7:41PM).
Ishmael (whoever he may be) said to the "Infidels": "Submit or you will be put to the sword." (Above, February 19, 2009, 23:01).
I don't recall you pontificating about these threats at the time, but you are offended by my 'Hellfire' comment. Who is hypocritical here?
Remember, in a duel the challanged party gets to pick the weapon. If you bomb Pearl Harbor you may end up nuked.
Speaking of Arabs and swords, here is an illustration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAoJrNbgUoI&feature=related

Gulliver dug deep to find this: "Stan said to Joe".
You forgot to mention that Joe had a hysterical fit that day, and posted "Hungarian idiot" about 20 times in that one thread (more in others). I just wanted him to shut up already, it was beyond childish.
If you call someone an idiot in a heated argument, that's one thing. If you flood other people's conversation with large number of "idiot" one-liners, it's another.
Anything that might shut up a raging lunatic is fine. We have no moderators here, so we do what we can to cut down on the number of idiot posts.
I would never even consider pulling a verbal threat if I simply disagree with an opinion. As I said, anything goes. Posting the same crap 20 times is not free speech and not an opinion, it's insanity, it's graffiti, it's vandalism, etc.
Now you know.

Stan,
I don't really have a problem with that.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
BTW I didn't have to dig deep.

Oops! I mixed up the 3 G's! I actually agreed with *Gargoyle's* remarks... (I'll have to speak to my dealer about the shit he is selling me…) As for Gullenberg, having been confronted with such unimpeachable proof as The Raiders of the Lost Ark I suddenly feel like Morrowbie Jukes and say: nuke the fuckin' towelhead, sand nigger bastards to kingdom come! It's not like they are human anyway.. Right? As for the stomach turning exchanges on Politics.hu, isn't it you folks who always tell us that "two wrongs don't make a right?" "I don't recall you pontificating about these threats at the time," I didn't even know about those threats at the time. You're such a demagogue G! Who is hypocritical here? You, obviously "Remember, in a duel the challanged party gets to pick the weapon. If you bomb Pearl Harbor you may end up nuked" &, how do you end up if you bomb CIVILIAN TARGETS in Dresden? Or GAZA for that matter?

Visitor,
Thanks for asking. If you visited your local library you would know the answer, but I'll help you out.
Dresden was a response to Nazi Germany's bombing of London and Coventry.
The most recent Gaza invasion was a response for years of Hamas rocket attacks.
There are many lessons here, but one must be willing to learn.

Gulliver says:
"Dresden was a response to Nazi Germany's bombing of London and Coventry."

No. It was a barbaric attack on civilization. Barbarians, like the USA and the UK showed how little respect they have for European culture and innocent lives. There no excuse for that.

"The most recent Gaza invasion was a response for years of Hamas rocket attacks."

You gotta be kidding. A few harmless rockets fired by a few extremist into the desert. Then comes the collective punishment, kill more than a thousand innocent kids and women and people who had nothing to do with the so called "rocket attacks".
Israeli propaganda calls that "self defense", and only the severely retarded believes that crap.
It was yet another war crime the gangster leaders of Israel may get away with.
The WJC should mind their own filthy business instead of trying to ban free speech in Hungary.

Stan,
Your selective moral outrage is touching.
Mixing facts with opinions is amusing.
You biases are pathetic.
When you start a war you are at war, by definition. You don't get to pick your enemies' actions.
When you start a total war you are at total war, by definition. You may be totally annihilated.
Afterwards (if you live thru it) you can argue about right or wrong, fair or unfair all you want. History is written by the winners though, whether you like it or not.
The lesson is: pick your leaders, your enemies and your wars with great care. Innocents may die unjustly but the stupid die deservedly.
Hungary has never learned that lesson. Neither have you.

Gulliver,
Once again you're running around the truth in circles, and never get any closer to it.
Obviously you cannot justify the Dresden Holocaust or the Gaza massacre, "blame the victim" is pretty weak.
Winners who "write history" are not necessarily the good guys. The two World Wars are the proof for that.

Stan,
It is generally accepted that the good guys won Worl War II. Obviously, you disagree.
So, instead of "running around the truth in circles" could you enlighten us who you think the good guys were and why?
Thanks

While it can be agreed that Dresden was unnecessary and truly an act of 'blood vengeance' (you see I did not write that I agree with 160 as it may give him comfort in his sick and twisted little thoughts), all I have to say about this is too fucking bad. Germans chose Hitler and the paid the price for his support, this is the justification.

160, no one here believes for a second you care at all about the Palestinians, or the 1940's Germans in Dresden, though you might have some anti-Jew kinship with them. It is just another point for which you try to rally popular support around your anti-Israel position; it would be hard for you to be more transparent (really not the sign of someone with such a high IQ).

I am sure if the Gypsy's in the VIII district started lobbing bombs into the center of the city you would have no qualms about razing it to the ground.

Godwin's law! End of discussion.

Gulliver says:
"It is generally accepted that the good guys won World War II."

No, there were no good guys. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Churchill, FDR, I didn't like any of them. They should have killed each other instead of everyone else.

The question is, why did the winners of WWI had the screw up the "peace treaty" so badly. It was an invitation for the sequel.

C'est moi says:
"all I have to say about this is too fucking bad. Germans chose Hitler and the paid the price for his support, this is the justification."

Germans were screwed after WWI, Hitler was the one who gave them hope. Later he turned into a mental patient, but by that time Hitler was no longer a matter of choice for Germans, this is what happens when you give too much power to your leaders.
If you're mad at Hitler, make an effort to kill him, don't destroy a perfectly good historical city, full of irreplaceable cultural treasures and innocent people. If you do it, don't try to pose as the good guy, bringer of freedom. You're just a barbarian, with more airplanes and bombs than the other guys.

"no one here believes for a second you care at all about the Palestinians",

So now you represent everyone. Cool.
The point you keep missing is not what I think of the Palestinians, it's the double-standard. Jews cannot be wrong, they never admitted any errors in handling the Palestinian situation, they obviously believe that anything goes as long as they are not on the receiving end.

"I am sure if the Gypsy's in the VIII district started lobbing bombs into the center of the city you would have no qualms about razing it to the ground."

The question is, what would happen if Hungary treated its minorities the same way Israel does.
We don't bomb gypsies from warplanes, we peacefully protest, yet we are the bad guys and Jews are the good ones.

Of course, not having an argument of your own, you're trying to play the anti-semite card again.
Well, I don't care. Tell you why: Jews make up about 0.1% of Hungary's population. They just decided to come together, and have a conference with about 80 Jewish organizations participating.
They declared two things:

1. Israel has the right to defend itself

2. Hungarians don't have the right to free speech.

If you see 0.1 percent of the population is trying to take away your hard earned right to free speech, you may question their motives, and why are they even taken seriously? Why so few people have so many exclusive Jewish political and religious organizations in Hungary?

When I try to defend my country from foreign influence, I do my patriotic duty. If you or other misguided liberals call me an anti-semite for that, it's not my problem, it's yours. If Israel has the right to defend itself, so do Hungary. Like it or not.

Stan,
Once again, you're the one "running around the truth in circles, and never get any closer to it".
No one says that everything the allies did during WWII was morally right. On the other hand the Germans, the Hungarians and the rest of the axis powers did almost everything wrong, both morally and practically.
The firebombing of Dresden may have been morally questionable but the Germans lost their right to be treated morally. The Germans were responsible for Hitler's actions from beginning to end and they had paid the price.
No one (besides you) says that Israel or the Jews cannot do wrong. That, however, does not mean that everything they do is wrong, which is what you are saying. You are using the classic straw man argument.
Your claim of moral equivalency of Churchill, FDR, Stalin, Hitler, etc. is pathetic. It is also a cowardly way of "running around the truth in circles". Why don't you just tell us what you really think?

I get it now. It's not that you care about the Germans or Palestinians, it just that they were/are powerless to stop an overwhelming force from dictating their terms of surrender. In their struggle you see your own sense of powerlessness and emasculation. Since you are unable to self-assess to see why you have these strong feelings of inadequacy, you are lead to lash out at and align yourself with some perceived 'underdog'. Facts can take a backseat to fiction as long as it completes your delusion.

I think deep down inside what you need is a hug and for someone to tell you that it will be alright. Don't worry, poor little 160, the Jews are not coming to take away your freedom of speech.

Maybe the Jewish population of Hungary feels the need combat this common psychosis which permeates much of Hungarian life; my guess is this is why they have so many interest groups.

Stan,
What do you think is wrong with this exchange?
C'est moi said: "I am sure if the Gypsy's in the VIII district started lobbing bombs into the center of the city you would have no qualms about razing it to the ground."
You said: "The question is, what would happen if Hungary treated its minorities the same way Israel does. We don't bomb gypsies from warplanes, we peacefully protest, yet we are the bad guys and Jews are the good ones."
With your IQ160 I'm sure you can see it, can't you...

Gulliver is trying to be amusing again:
"With your IQ160"

This was not funny the first time, and now it's just boring. So you got an "F" on your IQ test, big deal. No one expected any better of you, deal with it.
IQ-envy will not make you any more intelligent.
If you don't understand my posts, keep reading them over and over, ask an adult for help when you get stuck.

Stan,
I understand your post(s) all too well...
Do you?
The conundrum you have could easily be solved by admitting that your argument is flawed.
The question will still remain: why?
1./ You are ignorant.
2./ You are intellectually dishonest.
The default selection (not answering) is #2.
Feel free to provide a third alternative, if you can. It will only count, however, if it is a valid argument.
Stop beating around the bush.

Gulliver keeps asking:
"the question will still remain: why?"

The answer is #3: I have no idea what your problem is, so I'm ignoring you. There.

Have a drink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc0Lsm2Qgtg

@Gullenberg /"Dresden was a response to Nazi Germany's bombing of London and Coventry" Bullshit. In Coventry industrial targets were bombed with a few dozen collateral civilian casualties and even those could have been avoided if Churchill doesn't personally order that no defensive action be taken (for the same reason I guess the Lusitania was set up to be sunk or Pearl Harbor to be bombed). Dresden on the other hand had no strategic or military targets at all ("Florence on the Elbe" ) & still more than *250,000* people died in the firestorm that the *4,000 tons* of high explosives and incendiary bombs created. *More people died in Dresden than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.* 90 per cent of Dresden, an icon of Europe's cultural heritage, was destroyed. The London blitz too was preceded by USAF & RAF attacks on strictly civilian targets in Berlin. Until then German attitude toward the British was typified by the Dunkirk debacle where they graciouly let 338,000 defeated British soldiers flee. The Luftwaffe only bombed British cities with *leaflets*. "It is generally accepted that the good guys won Worl War II" Such as Churchill & Stalin… What a joke. &, who is 'generally' anyway."The most recent Gaza invasion was a response for years of Hamas rocket attacks" Ah, "Israel's right do defend itself!" Another crock. 'The logic goes as follows: Israel has the right to occupy Palestinian land, lay siege to Palestinian populations in Bantustans surrounded by an apartheid wall, starve the population, cut them off from fuel and electricity, uproot their trees and crops, and launch periodic raids and targeted assassinations against them and their elected leadership, and if this population resists these massive Israeli attacks against their lives and the fabric of their society and Israel responds by slaughtering them en masse, Israel would simply be 'defending' itself as it must and should.' http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10221.shtml Isn't the Gaza genocide in fact part of the Israelite pillage of Gaza Marine's HUGE off shore natural gas reserves? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyPtd6qKLVE I wonder why we hear so little about _that in the mainstream media...

@C'est moi: /"I am sure if the Gypsy's in the VIII district started lobbing bombs into the center of the city you would have no qualms about razing it to the ground" Gypsys? What happened to ROMA? &, Are you suggesting that Gypsies killing Hungarians would justify bombing Roma villages by the Hungarian Air Force? Wow! I am shocked! You may also have missed that we're little more indigenous in Hungary than you folks are in Palestine and we were here centuries before the "Roma" too. "this is why they have so many interest groups" 'They?' Why do you keep calling 'Jews' 'they?' You are one yourself, aren't you?

@Visitor
"I am shocked! You may also have missed that we're little more indigenous in Hungary than you folks are in Palestine and we were here centuries before the "Roma"

Actually, "you folks in palestine" (assuming you mean jews here), were noted as being in Hungary during Roman times, which would make "them" more indigenous than you guys?

Not saying this to score points, but to highlight that the "indigenous" argument is a bit like fleas arguing over who was on the dog first.

@Visitor: Pedantry again, but the number who died in Dresden is estimated at between 25-40K, though 140K died in Hiroshima and 80K in Nagasaki.
Obviously this was as intended, the way and means of breaking what vestiges of resistance to a crumbling German army that remained. The worry was whether the war was going to continue until November or later, whereas after Dresden it lasted only another 12 weeks. 25K is an appalling figure, but death rates per day of the war far exceeded this. In Warsaw alone the Jewish Council was ordered to find 10K people daily (stepped up from the initial 6K in 1942) to be transported to the camps. Take in other civilian casualties that the Germans were systematically liquidating, the threat of new long range missiles being developed, the worry or nuclear weapon development etc... The need to bring an end to the war as quickly and unequivocally as possible was the lesser evil.
In this case, trying to find or attribute who is right or wrong is too manipulative - and convenient. Are you saying that the Germans gave a damn about civilian casualties? That the war should have been left to carry on indefinitely? that other civilian casualties should have been the victims, or that Churchill, as a war leader, should have decided to put his own nation and people first? Isn't that what wars are about, victor and loser, aggressor and defender? Wind time back a few years to when sweet Adolf was planning to arrive into London for his victor parade by the overnight sleeper carriage from Paris and Churchill was trying to persuade a deaf House of Commons that there was no border that was safe from German ambitions.
No civilian casualty death is justified, which ever side of the war was being fort. On simple numbers alone though, Dresden resulted in the fewest deaths.
Unless you have a better idea in retrospect in how to have ensured the surrender more easily?

Many years ago I used to work with a French guy who was in Paris during the German invasion. He told me how his parents agonised over whether they should stay or flee. They decided to stay, and in so doing, narrowly avoided the German fighter planes that strafed long lines of refugees, including their neighbours who were killed. He also said that they lived near to some kind of fort that the Gestapo took over as a regional headquarters. Day and night they could hear the screams of people being tortured. The Nazis were not saints by any measure.
For the record: Torture is wrong, no matter who does it. Yes, I think Guantanamo should be closed and the prisoners given access to proper legal representation and rights.

be-Vandorlo is jumping on the revisionist bandwagon, trying to make the Dresden Holocaust pretty.
You are a Dresden-denier, anti-Germanite, off to prison with ya.

@Stan: Let's have a look at how full of shit you are (supersaturated as it is).

You said:
"be-Vandorlo is jumping on the revisionist bandwagon, trying to make the Dresden Holocaust pretty. You are a Dresden-denier, anti-Germanite, off to prison with ya."

I say: "be-Vandorlo' I've said it before myself ('nem vagyok expat, hanem bevándorló'), dick brain.
I say: "revisionist" I acknowledge the appalling loss of life, that it was a civilian target, the numbers that died etc... What is being revised apart from you wanting to mentally re-fight a war you lost. Dick brain.
I say: "Holocaust" Just, dick brain.
I say: "pretty" I could go into more detail, but I know you have no answer. But OK, tell me where did Winston realise that civilian targets are sometimes more effective in blocking roads, supplies, morale etc... Here's a clue 'the home of mustard'. Also apart from February 14th the allied forces concentrated all their attacks in Dresden on the munitions factories in the suburbs, including a poison gas factory. There is no "pretty" about it. It was a f'cking war against a completely immoral enemy. dick brain.
I say: "Dresden-denier" lásd fent, faszkalap.
I say: "anti-Germanite" Non sequitur WTF, dick brain.
I say: "off to prison with ya" WTF, dick brain.

be-vandorlo,

I understand your frustration. You must feel like your ancestor, David, trying to fight Goliath without the slingshot. Compared to you, I'm a giant, and I'm armed with the TRUTH. You ain't got nuthin' but childish little insults. I can hardly see you from up here...

@Stan: Some research you should browse: "You Bastard: A Narrative Exploration of the Experience of Indignation within Organizations," by David Sims, Organization Studies 26, no. 11 (2005): 1625-1640.

To quote: 'There are times when any relativism of view disappears in a cloud of heartfelt indignation. Then an interested, exploratory stance to what the other person thinks they are doing becomes impossible. The internal discourse changes from one in which the other is 'construed as behaving strangely' or as 'seeing the world differently' or even as mistaken; the discourse becomes one in which they are 'wrong', 'wicked', 'simply a bastard' and should be treated as such.'

Amen.

Stan, Visitor,
So this is what you mean by honest debate.
You make up your "facts" to suit your "arguments" which are little more than verbal thuggery to begin with. When you lose you shrug and throw more feces.
Visitor, you should visit a library which is not restricted to the nazi version of "history". You may learn something there, which is dangerous, so I know you won't go.
Stan, you should visit any library.
Of course, I know, it makes no sense to argue with you, except for this: in the process you are exposing yourselves as ignorant thugs and your views as dangerous delusions.
Thanks for the side show.
It's educational and embarrassing.

What is really embarrassing is that you 2 intellectual midgets try your hardest to match wits with this intellectual giant who has a recorded IQ of 160. He doesn't need to go to the library, just thinking of a book will allow it to be absorbed into his massive brain. Why argue or debate, anyone with a 160 IQ can process ideas at a level which we can't even begin to fathom (!)

@C'est moi: I write with a bowed head in hope of not offending our esteemed Effendi. Stan is, I realise now, the incarnation of Jorge Luis Borges' character Funes the Memorious.
"Funes not only remembered every leaf on every tree of every wood, but even every one of the times he had perceived or imagined it. " As Funes said about himself: "I have more memories in myself alone than all men have had since the world was a world." http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/borges.htm

Yes, it's true, I am an intellectual giant - compared to Gulliver, C'est Moi, Joe and of course Vandorlo, and a few others on your side. I cannot deny that, when you're right, you're right.

The only one I can look up to is Visitor, who's a whole lot smarter than I am, but obviously too quick for you, so read his posts as many times as needed to fully understand, and then you just might learn something. Visitor rules. You're maggots.

Couldn't agree with you any more. We are just children next to your intellect. 160 IQ, wow, I didn't think in my life I would ever meet someone with such a high IQ.

If you are not already, and I assume not since I don't see your name, nor any other Hungarians (not saying Hungarians are not smart, they're just not Stan-smart), you should join the Tetra High IQ Society so you may converse with intellectual equals (tetra@generiq.net) and leave us maggots behind. You could also regale them with stories like how you were the first man on the moon, or how you beat (off) Gary Kasparov and Bobby Fisher at the same time, or how your "final solution" would have worked.

We bow before you 160

You know who else had a 160 IQ:

Ben Franklin
Bill Gates
Hans Dolph Lundgren
Copernicus
Stephen W. Hawking
and
Albert Einstein - a Jew so it doesn't count

Can't wait to see Pestiside's resident bigot make the list

@C'est Moi - All Hungarians have an IQ above 160.

All of you are intellectual midgets compared to my trans-dimensional intellect and time travelling wisdom. You should all bow down before my IQ of 2,175,891.4. I remember laughing in Plato's face way back when. He'd had a rough night before and only scored 67 on his Mensa admission test. Fond memories of humiliating intellectual? giants. Those were the days...

Who gives a crap about IQ. It's only a certain way of comparing some forms of intelligence (like logic, lateral thinking or spacial awareness) between different individuals. It certainly doesn't represent someones abiltiy to empathise, lead, persuade or many other skills that we could consider to be part and parcel of intellect.

Back to this issue of changing the constitution. Any Hungarian citizens here interested in starting a petition to hold a single issue referendum to remove immunity from prosecution from politicians?
Wouldn't that be clever, and constructive too. Wonder why no one has suggested it before on these pages.

But seriously. Why have none of the great intellects (on all sides of the debate so I'm not pointing fingers at any individuals) that claim to inhabit these here comment streams not replied to my referendum idea when I posted it on politics.hu earlier this week (sorry to anyone who doesn't read those pages)?

Is it a possible idea? Could it be done? Come on, we read so much from people on this site about how they think Hungary should be 'fixed', but probably the easiest thing to do to lessen outright corruption and wipe the smiles from all the faces of those politicians that you hate is to remove their immunity from prosecution via constitutional change brought about by a single issue referendum. I've spoken to some people (who don't claim to be experts, so I could be wrong here) amd now think it really is possible to do it here in Hungary.

Please, I'm waiting for some insight from someone who knows even something about referendum and constitutional law here in Hungary. If you have a hatchet, please bury it just this once. We can all work together to make a change.

@Peter - Are you implying that all Hungarians are intelligent, or that Stan is the bottom of the bunch?

Doktor Ki (v.12)
The reason no one has taken up your suggestion, and I am making an assumption, is that most of the readers/posters here are not Hungarians by nationality or blood; if they were they most likely would be on a Hungarian website. Even if they were to try they would be scoffed at by 'real' Hungarians for meddling in their affairs.

---

I am not sure if you are new here or not, but asking reasonable people to 'bury the hatch' after being subjected on a daily basis to the sort of intellectual, and I use this term very loosely, filth spouted by Stan and his now hopefully gone-for-good compatriots is something which is not going to happen anytime soon, nor am I going to let go of Stan's proclamation of his 160 IQ.

@Dr Ki

Actually, I think it's a fantastic idea.

I have a question though (as I haven't looked into it all myself)but, is immunity from prosecution here also applicable in the European Court?

The reason I ask is that I am pretty sure that I have seen politicians go to trial for various breaches of the law (normally finance related) and was wondering whether there would be any recourse to prosecute the worst of the government offenders here through that channel?

If yes, then nationality and blood would not matter as much?

(Can't believe I am actually suggesting using the EU for anything; goes against the grain - but was curious nontheless.)

G

@anon600ad /"French guy... Nazis... Day and night they could hear the screams of people being tortured" Sounds like a B movie or some Hollywood soap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Px2Y12062g Has it ever occurred to you that the 'French guy' was confabulating, perhaps? Did you ask any QUESTIONS? Checked facts? Or have you just accepted anything he said as an article of faith?
@Gargoyle /"jews… in Hungary during Roman times… which would make 'them' more indigenous than you guys?" Jews in Hungary during Roman times? Are you kidding? But even if it were true, THOSE Jews would have been biblical Hebrews that you are not any more related to than we are, or the Mormons i. e. your presence in Palestine makes less sense than Italians coming here and kicking us out of our own country and exterminating whoever is unable or unwilling to leave. "that the "indigenous" argument is a bit like fleas arguing over who was on the dog first" So, what exactly are you saying? If I can take whatever is yours I should? Or if I can kill you I should? I mean, if I am doing it to you it's probably BAD... It's only OK when you are doing it to me, right?

@ Visitor

" So, what exactly are you saying? If I can take whatever is yours I should? Or if I can kill you I should? I mean, if I am doing it to you it's probably BAD... It's only OK when you are doing it to me, right?"

Not sure where you get that from? My point is; arguing over who was in a particular place first is irrelevant to solving the modern problem. On that basis, the Celts can come back and kick the English out of mainland UK.

G

@Vándorló /"Pedantry again," Pedantry? Sounds more like hate speech, holocaust denial and sacrilege to me.( Nomeg a véredben van, hogy mindent kipászkenolj, ami "rossz a zsidóknak" ;) As for figures, let's not forget that the Dresden bombing was simply denied until Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five was finally published in *1969!* Until then people went to prison for just mentioning it just like people are still imprisoned for "Holocaust denial." Any historian or public figure who tried to raise the subject got the David Irving /Bishop Williamson treatment. I don't completely understand why Vonnegut was allowed to even allude to what really happened but I am sure his being a Commie played a part in it. He was also on the ground in Dresden when the bombing happened and took part in the cleanup and the body count that having been performed by Germans was a lot more pedantic than you'll ever be. The figures mentioned were consistently 260,000 bodies and residues of bodies plus those that simply *evaporated* that put the estimated figure of casualties between 260,000 and 400,000. There were 500,000 *killed and injured.* I mean people crippled for life, and we are talking about very short lives I am sure. 700,000 refugees left Dresden after the Holocaust, many of whom eventually died as well of starvation or in Allied or Soviet extermination camps (James Bache: Other Losses). Just look at the pictures! http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden2.JPG wall to wall bodies all over town http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Extrablatt/dresden_bunker.jpg bodies piled up six feet high like fire wood! but, you are trying to explain it away anyway without blinking an eye, like you're trying to explain away your current genocide. At the same time you try and destroy anyone who dares to even question the 6 million figure of your perverse faith. (A very *lucrative* faith btw…) "civilian casualties that the Germans were systematically liquidating," What are you talking about? "the worry or nuclear weapon development" Hitler ordered a stop to nuclear weapon development because it was believed that a nuclear explosion could ignite the earth's atmosphere whereupon the whole German program was quickly stolen by the Allies (much like Steve Job knocked off Xerox's research for Apple) who simply don't give a shit about the Earth or its atmosphere if they can't control it. "Are you saying that the Germans gave a damn about civilian casualties?" Unlike you folks, they sure did.

@Vándorló, cont. /"Churchill, as a war leader, should have decided to put his own nation and people first?" Churchill was so concerned about 'his own people' that he shoved them in harms way with the Lusitania affair, where he made sure a few hundred British kids get killed to stir up emotions or bombing civilian targets in Germany than issuing orders that no defensive action be taken when the Germans finally retaliated. *He wanted civilian casualties* to start a war that neither the Germans nor a vast majority of the British public wanted. "Wind time back a few years to when sweet Adolf was planning to arrive into London for his victor parade by the overnight sleeper" Is this another LeBor bestseller? The Germans wanted to *share power with the British. They let the defeated British army off the hook at Dunkirk because they didn't want to humiliate them. There were no plans for an occupation.
Gullenberg: "You make up your 'facts'"What exactly have I made up? "It's educational and embarrassing" You are finally right. Cheer up though, at least you don't go totally batshit when you run out of arguments like our friend Ván here: "Faszkalap, dick brain… You Bastard… Funes the Memorious…" Poor guy.

@Visitor: "...hate speech, holocaust denial and sacrilege..." WTF are you talking about? Particularly the accusation of violation of sacrilege. WTF was so sacred that I have dared to blaspheme or utter a profanation (your Führer)? Really, WTF are you talking about? "..Dresden bombing was simply denied until Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five.." Not true, not a word of it. There was an immediate outcry from the British and International press that has not stopped to this day. Relying on Vonnegut's account in Slaughterhouse-Five is simply ridiculous. One personal account balanced against thousands of other pieces of evidence. Particularly as this was popular writing that was meant to sell - what better way. There are hundreds if not thousands of examples that you can look up that will make this claim look as pathetic as it is. The numbers you give are just idiotic. The pictures are appalling and tragic, we have all seen them, but not one of them supports any of your factual or emotive assertions, nor provides any basis for believing your figures.
The crap you spout about the nuclear program is even more pathetic. So Hitler is a good guy in your books, because he was an environmentalist? A veggie, too - more plus points? 'He wanted to save the planet. No really, he was misunderstood. He was a caring sharing kind-a-guy, good intentions, heart in the right place, just unlucky' *WTF* I mean WTF are you talking about.
'"Are you saying that the Germans gave a damn about civilian casualties?" Unlike you folks, they sure did.' So bombing London, Coventry, Liverpool etc... that was OK was it. Fuck you.
But, it gets worse.
"The Germans wanted to *share power with the British." We didn't need their f'cking say so, read the history books the victors wrote.
"They let the defeated British army off the hook at Dunkirk because they didn't want to humiliate them." You're delusional as well as stupid.
"There were no plans for an occupation." Where? UK, France, Poland... Get a grip.

Dammmmm,

Visitor, you better pull your pants back up because you just got SPANKED!

By the way, thanks for clearing up for me that you belong in the pro-nazi, anti-semetic, loony closet. Good we have some new turns swirling around the bowl after the other 2 seem to have left.

Vandorlo,

How you managed to pick the peanuts out the crap Visitor wrote is commendable; I gave up trying myself as I find it hard to argue with revisionist fiction based on propaganda from the text book for the Hitler youth.

Kudos to you.

G

I don't really have a problem with the idea of revising history. Actually, I think it is necessary...especially as new information on many past events comes to light fairly regularly. Perhaps a little more controversially, I don't even have a problem *necessarily* with revisiting history in order to challenge a dominant view, since as has been quoted ad nauseum about history being written by the victors. There are many voices and perspectives that are often omitted or neglected, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not.
What I don't like, however, is the idea that because a version of history is dominant, or that because it has been written by victors, that it must necessarily be wrong. WWII was one of the darkest chapters in human history. Everyone involved committed horrendous acts of savagery and callous disregard for humanity...and yes, that (in my opinion) unquestionably includes Dresden, as well as Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and more). I simply cannot accept though, that everyone on the Axis side was squeaky clean. Too much evidence exists that proves the holocaust happened...incidentally, much of this evidence is correspondingly similar to that which 'proves' the war crimes of the Allies. (photos, witness statements etc) Even holocaust deniers accept that the concentration camps existed even if they deny the gas chambers. Even so, working thousands of people to death in the production of armaments is still a war crime. The Germans did bomb targets in England and they did have plans for invasion. The war in the east was among the most brutal ever seen with Hitler's directive being to wage a war without the usual bounds of human restraint. I am glad that the Axis powers lost the war. You can't tell me that life under the Nazis would have been a Utopian dream...just as life under communism was no "workers' paradise". I can't see that the Arrow Cross would have stopped their brutality once the Jews and Gypsies were 'dealt with'.
I do believe in free speech, and so in fairness, that does mean that denying the holocaust shouldn't be illegal. By all means, let us re-examine history to our hearts' content. I will not, however, throw out the masses of evidence that do exist simply because they prove something truly horrible actually happened.

HHM sounds suspiciously like some old school Soviet front org. anyway, i'm glad that the boys at the embassy had their ears to the ground to have picked up on the potential violence vibe.As to the embassy closing, that smells like a ready made excuse for some diplomatic Call Girl/Boy action behind closed doors.My/your tax dollars at work.

@Gargoyle, Just to clear some things up here, you're not calling Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five revisionist fiction, are you? The thread is a bit long and it's sometimes difficult to figure out what is being said at what.

Stan: London,Coventry,and Liverpool, where bombed extensively during the Second World War.
The Allies reaction was to respond in kind. The main target:Dresden.

Can any of this "mindless nonsense" be condoned with hindsight? Both actions were equally nauseous.
The tens of thousands of innocent people killed on both sides must teach us some lessons.
(Not an "eye for an eye" or a "tooth for a tooth"!)
The Dresden bombings could not be justified, but, then again, neither could the London, Liverpool and Coventry blitz.

AJPTaylor,

I see it differently. If the British Isles would sink into the ocean today, I sure wouldn't miss it. I'd call it justice.
The insane British "empire" is responsible for most of the trouble we are having today. To hell with it. I'd rather save Dresden than England, but first I'd return the loot from the Hall of Stolen Goods (British Museum) to their rightful owners. Then let it sink.

@Minsztrel

Vonegut isn't the problem; my issue is the casting of Nazis as the "nice guys" in the tragedy of WW2.

History can be viewed through the lense of whatever facts fit your particular ideology or fit your purpose. While I agree that the view from the victor's stance is not as honestly portrayed as the Allies led us to believe, I am pretty damned sure that the ghetto's, workcamps, gas chambers and civilian executions by Nazi's throughout Europe does not give them the moral superiority that Visitor claims.

G

160 - You are such a stupid little twat that I wish that the load that produced you would have just had stayed in you mother's arse where it belonged, thereby saving us from your mindless drivel. But my guess is that you probably gestated in her upper rectum anyway given all the shit you post here. Really what is wrong with you? Were you a lonely little boy with no one to play with and therefore long for the negative attention your pathetic ideas bring because at the end of the day its better than no attention at all?

@Stan: "British Isles"? Are you sure? So, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey, as well as the peoples of Skye, Hebrides, Shetlands, Orkney... These people are also responsible for the British (as in 'Great Britain' not the 'British Isles') empire's actions throughout history. Have you heard of Cromwell? Bannockburn? Sons of Glyndwr?
We can cross geography and history off the list of things you pretend to know anything about (economics, sociology, genetics, psychology... are already crossed off).

I just don't get the sarcastic tone of this article. Hope McChange? I think activism is valuable and the issue of increased U.S. military tools in the region is of social and civic concern, but why the sarcasm? This tone is very disappointing and, I think, immature given the very fragile state of global politics.

Article? There was an article? Oh...yeah, that's right. Somewhere way up at the top of the screen. Don't let (dodgy) news get in the way of a good argument. ;)

Vándorló:
"British Isles" is a geographical term. I bet you didn't know that. When I mentioned sinking it into the sea, I was obviously talking about the pile of rocks that make up the British Isles, and it includes the entire neighborhood above sea level. Regardless of population ethnicity or history or anything. Clear now?

Stan...Sinking the Poms? So much for those ELP guys. Well, I guess they're probably living in the US now, or like most other aging rockers, somewhere in Central Europe.
Seriously though...good musical pedigree. Shame the world missed out on seeing what it would be like with Hendrix.

anon600ad,
Ok, you talked me out of it. I will allow the British Isles to stay afloat. Only because of the good music, Monty Python, Benny Hill and Manchester United. I still reserve the right to find the UK depressing and responsible for most of the ills of the world.

@Stan: You'll be pleased to know that they've included you in the film 'Happy Go Lucky' as the driving instructor. Enraha, Stan, enraha!

SueB: I agree. If you are looking for maturity, social or civic concern, you have the wrong site. If you find an expat run site on Hungary showing any of those things, please let me know.

@anon600ad /"Everyone involved committed horrendous acts… I simply cannot accept though, that everyone on the Axis side was squeaky clean" Nobody said the Axis side was clean. It was more _idealistic than the Allies but the only real difference between the two sides was that the Allies won *by a hair.* "Too much evidence exists that proves the holocaust happened…" If you mean the obnoxiously ridiculous soap series http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Px2Y12062g that gave the Shoa business its proper name, well, yes, it did happen and it was atrocious. "Even holocaust deniers accept that the concentration camps existed even if they deny the gas chambers" Concentration camps existed on both sides before and after the war. They were in fact invented by the English as was barbed wire. And, some of the Nazi camps were kept going by the Allies well into the 1960's. & then there is Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib... "The Germans.. did have plans for invasion" Prove it! "I will not, however, throw out the masses of evidence" Masses of literature is not necessarily masses of evidence. Astrology has tons of literature. What does it prove? "denying the holocaust shouldn't be illegal" But, alas, it is which in itself proves it didn't happen the way it is told.

@Kinky Ván & His Howling Jewboys /"WTF are you talking about?" About you fanatical fucks trying to explain away or minimalize a genuine Holocaust. One of your choir went as far as saying the people of Dresden _deserved to be burned alive because "they supported Hitler." Defaming deceased victims IS sacrilege. "There was an immediate outcry from the British and International press" You are lying. The British press was heavily censored during both world wars. During WWI they couldn't even mention the flu pandemic. Only the uncensored Spanish papers did which is why it was called the 'Spanish flu.' And they certainly couldn't have mentioned Dresden during WWII. "Vonnegut's account in Slaughterhouse-Five is simply ridiculous" It is probably more infuriating to you people than ridiculous but the point is that in those days even _alluding to what happened was risky. Later on Vonnegut gave hundreds of interviews spelling out exactly what he saw and experienced in Dresden. Then, we know what happened to him... "WTF are you talking about" WTF, WTF, WTF… Spouting obscenities again Chosen Boy? How very convincing! "So bombing London, Coventry, Liverpool etc" You have intentionally missed the vast differences between these bombings and the Dresden holocaust. The Luftwaffe was GOADED into retaliating by the RAF's war crimes that bombed strictly civilian targets in Berlin and other cities and even then the Germans bombed industrial targets with comparatively few collateral civilian casualties that Churchill tried to maximize by ordering British air defenses to sit still. "Fuck you" is another one of your overwhelming arguments I suppose… ( Mire nyálas kis barátod ujjongva tapsikol… C'est le Youpin!:) "read the history books the victors wrote" :) Make me! "Dunkirk…" "You're delusional as well as stupid" All you can do is spout insults again, kosher boy. Not even your victors history books deny what happened at Dunkirchen. "Where? UK, France, Poland... Get a grip" France occupied German land, Poland attacked Germany. The UK was a completely different paradigm. Dunkirk and how the Germans stopped after they liberated the Channel Islands proves it. "Enraha, Stan, enraha!" There he goes again around the bend… Poor guy just can't take pressure.

@Gargoyle (again) /"arguing over who was in a particular place first is irrelevant to solving the modern problem" Move out of your house then, a friend of mine needs your place, OK?

@Visító: To quote the latest historical research carried out with the assistance of the city and Mayor of Dresden:

'Recently, neo-Nazis in Germany have talked of between 500,000 and a million victims of Dresden, calling the raid a "bombing Holocaust" and comparing it to Hitler's murder of six million Jews.

However, a statement issued by the research team yesterday said: "The commission, in this preliminary report, believes there were a maximum of 25,000 people who died during the February aerial attack."

The team of experts has pored through file stretching for more than 2,600ft in the Dresden state archives and interviewed dozens of witnesses. The commission has also studied aerial attacks, rescue operations, firefighting, and archaeological evidence.

Despite the chaos during the devastation of the bombing, they said they found records of recovery and burial of the dead to be "remarkably orderly".

Dresden's mayor Helma Orosz said: "Through this work of the commission the victims get a face and a name. Behind every single victim is suffering and we should remember this."
http://news.scotsman.com/worldwarii/Dresden-victims-39farfewer-than-believed39.4549585.jp

To Quote from a letter to The Times (London) dated Thursday July 7, 1966, entitled "THE DRESDEN RAIDS" From Mr. David Irving:
"The bombing of Dresden in 1945 has in recent years been adduced by some people as evidence that conventional bombing can be more devastating than nuclear attacks, and others have sought to draw false lessons from this. My own share of the blame for this is large: in my 1963 book The Destruction of Dresden I stated that estimates of the casualties in that city varied between 35,000 and over 200,000.

The higher figures did not seem absurd when the circumstances were taken into account. I had tried for three years to bring to light German documents relating to the damage, but the east German authorities were unable to assist me. Two years ago I procured from a private east German source what purported to be extracts from the Police President's report, quoting the final death-roll as "a quarter of a million"; the other statistics it contained were accurate, but it is now obvious that the death-roll statistic was falsified, probably in 1945... (cont)

...The east German authorities (who had originally declined to provide me with the documents have now supplied to me a copy of the 11-page "final report" written by the area police chief about one month after the Dresden raids, and there is no doubt as to this document's authenticity. In short, the report shows that the Dresden casualties were on much the same scale as in the heaviest Hamburg raids in 1943. The document's author, the Höhere SS- und Polizeiführer Elbe, was responsible for civil defence measures in Dresden, it should be noted.

His figures are very much lower than those I quoted. The crucial passage reads:

"Casualties: by 10th March, 1945, 18,375 dead, 2,212 seriously injured, and 13,918 slightly injured had been registered, with 350,000 homeless and permanently evacuated." The total death-roll, "primarily women and children", was expected to reach 25,000; fewer than a hundred of the dead were servicemen. Of the dead recovered by then, 6,865 had been cremated in one of the city squares. A total of 35,000 people were listed as "missing".

The general authenticity of the report is established beyond doubt, because within a very few days of receiving the first, a second wartime German report was supplied to me, this time from a western source. It repeats exactly the figures listed in the above report, upon which it was evidently based.

The second report, a Berlin police summary of "Air Raids on Reich Territory", dated March 22, 1945, was found, quite by chance, misfiled among the 25,000 Reich Finance Ministry files currently being explored at the west German Federal Archives. It was forwarded to me by one of their archivists, Doctor Boberach.

I have no interest in promoting or perpetuating false legends, and I feel it is important that in this respect the record should be set straight.

I remain, Sir, your obedient servant,
DAVID IRVING.

25 Elgin Mansions, W.9." http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dresden/TheTimes070766.html

Pedantry again.
I just thought it worth spelling out for those that don't know (Visító is bound not to) that the main source Vonnegut used in his account of firebombing was 'The Destruction of Dresden' (1963), by David Irving. Vonnegut himself, based on this misunderstanding put the number of dead at 135,000. Slaughterhouse-Five was a work of science fiction, the reason it was banned in many places was due to what some people saw as its blasphemous language (e.g. "The gun made a ripping sound like the opening of the zipper on the fly of God Almighty"). See Irving's letter to The Times (London), 7th July 1966, retracting and correcting his statements and figures in his book and hence the implied necessary correction to Vonnegut's account and figures.

@Visitor,"Move out of your house then, a friend of mine needs your place, OK?"

I am pretty sure that someone else will live in my house one day but that is irrelevant to what we were talking about.

If we go back far enough, the Palestinians are living in what was a Jewsih "house", to use your analogy; Hungarians are living in a Roman house, Brits are living in a Celtic house etc etc

Surely, even you can see how ridiculous this process gets?

Only change is constant, and the ability of people to adapt to it and move forward.

G

@Gargoyle /"I am pretty sure that someone else will live in my house one day" Forget it. I need your place NOW so clear out like YESTERDAY, OK? "Palestinians are living in what was a Jewsih 'house'" BULLSHIT you are not the biblical Hebrews' descendants. There are no Hebrews, there are no Romans, there are no Celts, they all died out like the dinosaurs. "Surely, even you can see how ridiculous this process gets?" I have always seen it, have you? Do you? Or does someone like you have his brain hard wired?
@VándorLoo /"To quote the latest historical research" it's 'historical research' like the Gaza genocide is a humanitarian mission. .. The same sleaze that cries wolf about 'Nazis murdering Gypsies in Hungary' or declares Iceland a terrorist state puts another falsifying spin on our losers' history. On history that was simply denied for decades. Now, sixty five years after the fact they suddenly discover how THEIR crimes against humanity, THEIR war crimes hardly had any victims. WHAT A GROTESQUE, BOLD FACE LIE! & Will anyone's life be destroyed? Will anyone go to prison for 'Holocaust denial' or some such shit? No sir because only the fictional 6 million is sacrosanct and only the war victors matter. &, die Oberbürgermeisterin. Mensch, Du spinnst doch… What kind of name is Orosz anyway? Is she a Hungarian Jewess or something? When new German politicians are some of the most subservient whores that have ever disgraced mankind as it is. And, she is a politician in trouble. Was she made mayor to pull this job or was she pressured into it aftr she became mayor? "the victims get a face and a name" A face and a name? How about *Wiedergutmachung* for relatives and survivors by the Allies like the zillions the Ashkenazim got and get to this day? Not just for the Dresden victims but the victims of the Allied torture guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/apr/03/uk.freedomofinformation
and exterminationcamps amazon.com/Other-Losses-James-Bacque/dp/1559580992 _after the war
And how is Irving's 1966 work 'latest historical research' You are such a crooked liar, Loo. In the 1960's Irving was a 'respected historian.' Which he is not now, is he? Ever since he couldn't stand being a lying whore any more and started to tell the truth he's a 'Holocaust denying Nazi,' and a jail bird, right?

@VándorLoo, continued / "Pedantry again" Pathological attempts of whitewash by an apologist zealot again... "the main source Vonnegut used in his account of firebombing was 'The Destruction of Dresden' (1963)" Are you nuts? His main source was *his own experience* since he was there in Dresden before, during and after the Holocaust. He collected and counted bodies after the bombing. "reason it was banned in many places was due to what some people saw as its blasphemous language" Like in the 60's of the Beat Generation anything was banned for 'blasphemous language' Take a hike Loo. On top of this Orwellian trash the bastards are putting their meat hooks into Demjanjuk again.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25174849-2703,00.html
Paying billions of tribute every year is apparently not enough. They wants our flesh too, human sacrifice. Why does humanity tolerate this shit?

@Visító: Are you only on day release once a week?
Let's take this slowly for you, so you can follow.
Your evidence has been all based on the fictional account provided Vonnegut.
My evidence comes from multiple sources which are not fiction, but refer to primary and secondary records.
Your response to this information I provide is unbelievable (Tell me Tünde are you still supporting Visító's account and claiming he knows what he is talking about?).
First, although he was a prisoner of war in Dresden and did base the subjective *descriptions* of the terror on what he experienced (none of which has been denied by me or others, far from it), his objective historical information and figures came from Irving's book.
In relation to Vonnegut's fictional account you have made a number of assertions that have been shown to be not true. You claimed that before 1969 discussion of the Dresden bombings was suppressed and punishable by imprisonment or worse ("let's not forget that the Dresden bombing was simply denied until Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five was finally published in *1969!*").
This is obviously not true as I showed that Irving had published his book in 1963 and the ensuing discussion was carried over into the Times newspaper (UK) in 1966. There are plenty of other records showing your assertions and claims in this regard to be unfounded nonsense.
You also claimed that the number of dead was half a million. Your only evidence for this is again Vonnegut's fictional account, but even in this regard you are wrong. Vonnegut mentioned 135,000 as the final death tally, based on Irving's figures from his 1963 book (which I showed you Irving had retracted and corrected to the actual figure of approaching 25,000). You made even more wildly exaggerated claims: "The figures mentioned were consistently 260,000 bodies and residues of bodies plus those that simply *evaporated* that put the estimated figure of casualties between 260,000 and 400,000. There were 500,000 *killed and injured.* I mean people crippled for life, and we are talking about very short lives I am sure. 700,000 refugees left Dresden".
I showed you that contemporaneous primary accounts from the time of the bombing and modern historical analysis by an international team of historians had all concluded and confirmed the figure of 25,000.
The rest of what you write is simply an incoherent diatribe that shows you have no interest, understanding or capability to respond to verisimilitudinous evidence.

@Vandorlo, I forget where I read it (probably in one of Vonnegut's later works), but he in a rather embarrassed fashion distanced himself from the figures he got from Irving and stated that the total dead were far lower than what was published in Slaughterhouse Five. Don't forget that Irving, difficult as it may be to believe, was a well respected historian for a while, even if that's not the case today, nor that politically Vonnegut and Irving are miles apart.

@VándorLoo /"verisimilitudinous evidence" ? :))))))) Ah jeez, here come the big words again that are usually followed by a torrent of obscenities and then you totally go apeshit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMc-0Ba0g2c "Your evidence has been all based on the fictional account provided Vonnegut" Untrue. You just ignore whatever you can't process or don't want to hear. "My evidence" You don't have any evidence. You are spouting Allied propaganda, LIES, based on distorted, forged and one-sided history. "Tell me Tünde are you still supporting Visító's account" :)) Most Tündének segítenie kellene neked vagy tőlem 'kellene elkülönülnie'? The basic difference between me ('a magamfajta') and your kind is that I am interested in the *objective truth* regardless of its benefits to me. For you people whatever benefits you IS the 'truth' and any means are justified to put it forward or suppress its opposite. "[Vonnegut's] objective historical information and figures came from Irving's book" Says who? Have you btw READ either book? "You claimed that before 1969 discussion of the Dresden bombings was suppressed and punishable by imprisonment or worse This is obviously not true as I showed that Irving had published his book in 1963 and the ensuing discussion was carried over into the Times newspaper (UK) in 1966" You showed zilch. For the 100th time, Irving was a 'respected historian' back then and we know what the Times still is, *they were LICENSED to put forward the 'official version' of what happened in the approved rethoric* Plus thoroughly brainwashed UK didn't have/didn't need 'Holocaust denial' laws back when the H word didn't even exist yet. THAT obscene joke came with the grotesque TV soap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Px2Y12062g (you can watch the whole thing on line btw, and you should, it's hysterical)

@VándorLoo, continued /Occupied West Germany was a bit different after the war well into the 60's. It was "denazified" ( sample German Nazi #1: tinyurl.com/c3jbpk & #2: tinyurl.com/c8ol2n ) where mentioning Dresden in an unapproved manner could sling your ass in prison for as long as 10 years. "I showed you that contemporaneous primary accounts" ??? ( Shouldn't you take your pills, Loo? :)) You showed another bunch of forged history/propaganda cum media charade, 65 years after the fact, that stinks to high heaven. "The rest of what you write is simply an incoherent diatribe" Such as Germans too matter and should be compensated for the crimes committed against them, or US. ( Sample Hungarian Nazi: tinyurl.com/dbkddk ) Not just for Dresden but for all the other horrors the Allies are guilty of? Is that what you call 'incoherent diatribe?' Isn't it also kind of ludicrous that you keep referring to Irving whom you folks have persecuted, imprisoned and vilified after he stopped putting out for you? But, since you think he's such a great historian, why don't we discuss some of his more recent work. Let's talk about the 6 million, gas chambers, human soap, lamp shade made of human skin, mega billions to Israel and individuals in so called compensation, outrageous privileges including license to rob, kill and commit genocide. Or let's talk about the allied torture and extermination camps after the war. I could give you a long list of literature and references to Allied crimes against humanity including Dresden, in or excluding comrade Vonnegut's at least *six* other books and several hundred interviews on the subject. I could quote Swiss, East German or pre-occupation free-German sources whose history wasn't dictated by the Anglosphere that would show up last week's or month's forgery for what it is, a political scam. I could quote sources that account for the Dresden Holocaust right after it happened, including the *Stars and Stripes,* before the Allied Ministries of Truth started to forge, censor and eliminate the documents that would convict them of war crimes and started to weave their tapestry of lies and psychological terror from 'denazification' to holocaust denial' that continues to this day. The real Dresden records had probably long vanished before the Nuremberg show trials were staged.

@VándorLoo, continued /And the numbers are not even the point. The point is that THE ALLIES WERE JUST AS BAD OR WORSE than the big bad Nazis http://tinyurl.com/cjh85t Farshtayst?
http://tinyurl.com/d7t2of

Visitor,
Of your 3 posts you could have just skipped the first 2 rambling entries and skipped right to your point: "THE ALLIES WERE JUST AS BAD OR WORSE", damn, reading your rant made my brain hurt. Of course the allies where bad or worse than the axis. With how they swept into foreign countries without provocation then rounding up people for concentration camps...deplorable! Thanks for exposing the truth. Thank God the Axis powers were able stand up for what was right. All those liberated countries, cheering where the Axis drove the Allies out. How history could have gotten all this mixed up is beyond me.

@hápogó /"reading your rant made my brain hurt" Stop lying, you don't have a brain. You have a Zionist echo chamber in your skull instead of a brain "Of course the allies where bad or worse than the axis. With how they swept into foreign countries" :) Like the English would never ever sweep into a foreign country… Or the Gringos or you people. "without provocation" What do you call the Paris 'peace?' 'rounding up people for concentration camps' From Manzanar to Guantanamo the Allies had and HAVE the worst concentration camps in history. You have actually accused the Germans of what you yourself have done and are still doing. Thieves crying stop thief. "All those liberated countries, cheering where the Axis drove the Allies out" Such as Austria, Ukraine, Channel Islands, the better half of France (read Céline's L'École des cadavres, read Céline! Or the great Brasillach). The Irish *begged* the Germans to liberate them but Hitler was too impressed by the English to do it like he betrayed South Tirol, the bastard. "Thanks for exposing the truth" You're welcome.

Please, next time start your statements off with "Straw Man" so I know I can just skip over your shenanigans.

@Besucher Kolos - Sehr interessant, Schuldknecht.

@Visitor: You talk a whole load of shite. Unadulterated, fermented shite. "The Irish *begged* the Germans to liberate them" Really? When was that? Was that before Hitler drew up and then didn't act on Unternehmen Grün? Or the fact that the nazis new very little of any group that might sympathise with them because they pulled all their potential intelligence out of Ireland before the realised what a mistake that was and failed repeatedly to put them back (see the obituary of Mr Helmut Clissmann from the Irish Times November 08, 1997 http://www.clissmann.com/family/he_it.htm ) - which might account for your friend Irving remarking that Hitler's stance towards Ireland ""Perhaps no episode illustrates so vividly the whims which inspired Hitler's ad hoc military strategy." Irving D. Hitler's War (Focal Point, London 2002) at p.347
Are you talking about the almost non existent and laughable IRA–Abwehr attempts at collaboration?
Which Ireland are you talking of/for? De Valera's? The ghost of Michael Collins? The tragic Roger Casement?
No, none of these probably. Probably you're only thinking of Seán Russell, aren't you? Is that Ireland for you?

@iQ /Mythos statt Wahrheit mit zweierlei Maß gemessen, davon hab ich langsam mal genug...
@VándorLoo /" they pulled all their potential intelligence out of Ireland" Like I said, the
sonofabitch betrayed the Irish. "Is that Ireland for you?" Can you tell us why 93% of the Irish _left Ireland?

@Visitor: 93%, hey? More stats you pulled out of your arse. When? I mean, when did this 93% leave? Are you talking about total emigration across the centuries? The potato famine? The 1930's-1960's? Which ever way you slice and dice the stats they wouldn't give you your arse-plucked 93% - at least not without logarithms or some ingenious partial differential equations.

More than likely you are talking about after the famine. Pop. before around 8 million (1841), pop after around 5.5 million (1850). All time low, 4 million (1930) Pop. now around 5.5 million (including immigrants).

So, anyway, the 93% thing? Are you not ever embarrassed to spout this shite? Tünde, are you not going to take the man's plea and distance yourself from his nonsense? I guess blood ties count above anything else. Nationalism supports bullshit unequivocally?

No wait there is hope for you. The American stats. All those false Irish-American that love were they once loathed the Irish. In 2005 around 35 million Americans (12% of US population) reported Irish ancestry. That's almost enough, if you really want to cook the books and pretend all these emigrated from Ireland and are really Irish. Taking Ireland's population at the lowest (4 million) and assuming all the American-Irish we have, hey presto: 100-((4/35)*100) = 88.5714286%

Is this were your 93% comes from? Are you kidding me?

No maybe you were referring to further back, to the 1600's? I have already given Stan a history lesson he failed to understand. Cromwell wiped out around 600,000 people during his assaults on Ireland, which was about a third the population at the time. No, that still doesn't work. OK I give up, tell me were your figure of 93% comes from. Don't be modest, now. I may have trouble understanding your math but if you explain it slowly I'll try to follow.

To answer you & kill two flies with one blow, the reason I know this is that one of my given names is Gavan. Now if you were an Irish nationalist you would immediately know the significance of this more uncommon spelling. My (Irish) father named me after Charles Gavan Duffy one of the founders of The Nation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nation_(Irish_newspaper) ) .

So, I don't need history and nationalism lessons from twats the like of you and Tünde.

n.b. All the population stats are of course complicated by the division of Ireland. So I quote the total north and south (UK and Republic) and these are only rough estimates, though approximately correct

@Schuldknect - Leider ist deine Meinung alles Quatsch. Schade.

LOL, Visitor, you can pull your pants up now. This was the most egregious misuse of numbers since someone claimed to have a 160 IQ!

Channel Islands actually wanted the Nazis there!? The people of Jersey, Sark et al bravely resisted the beach landings of the hated Allied forces alongside their German brothers or something?! There was I thinking that everyone just forgot about them because they're really small and insignificant and frankly not worth the effort to liberate when you've got more important things to do. Like invading Berlin or capturing Paris.

Very bizarre inclusion into that list Visitor, very bizarre.

@Doktor Ki (v. 12) /"Channel Islands actually wanted the Nazis there!?" They didn't want the *English* there for the same reason the Irish, the Welsh, the Indians or anyone in his right mind that knows them doesn't want the English. "The people of Jersey, Sark et al bravely resisted the beach landings of the hated Allied forces alongside their German brothers or something?" Judging from the show trials of "Nazi collaborators" Brit Brother staged as late as 20 years ago, *yes.* Few people even know that socialist free Germany occupied http://tinyurl.com/d4zy85 ( I mean liberated :) parts of the UK or about the British French, Victor Hugo's people... 'Je dédie [ Les Travailleurs de la Mer] au rocher d'hospitalité et de liberté, à ce coin de vieille terre normande où vit le noble petit peuple de la mer, à l'île de Guernesey, sévère et douce, mon asile actuel, mon tombeau probable.' ;) &, I can't believe you're still spouting the drunk psychopath's propaganda ("we will fight them on the beaches" :)) Do you know that he was less popular in the UK during the war than Léon Blum in France or Stalin in red Russia?

@Grenzdebil /Schuldknect? Quatsch-Schade? Trainierst du noch oder spinnst du schon? Du bist kein Deutscher (Deutschland leider bist du schon…) also, wer bist du? Außer blödes Arschloch das sich da breit macht?

@Schuldknecht - Du hast eine ungesundliche obsession mit breiter Arschlochen! Ist das wegen die Stossung von Vandorlo? Tut es noch weh?

@Vándorló /"arse... twat.. shite... I am going to kill 2 flies..." OMG! I am beginning to worry about you man, are you sure you're up to this? "93%, hey?" And worse, actually, if you substitute 'left' with 'are' or define Irish as only those whose first language and culture is still Irish. Funny you should mention the potato famine too which was, as we all know (don't we?) engineered Malthusian eugenics: a(nother English) genocide. "Tünde, are you not going to take the man's plea and distance yourself ...?" Tünde, ne hülyéskedj különülj már el tőlem! Nem látod milyen ideges a Vándorgebe? Akarom mondani PARIPA… ezt most tényleg csak elírtam, úgyhogy ne bombázzátok le a házam, jó? Vándor *PEGAZUS*! (így jó lesz?) Légyszíves! "I have already given Stan a history lesson he failed to understand" Maybe, you should make him an offer he can't refuse… Or send him a dead fish, perhaps? "I may have trouble understanding your math but if you explain it slowly I'll try to follow" Don't worry, I understand: you're just a little *slow… (It could be a lot worse, just look at Grenzdebil) "My (Irish) father named me after Charles Gavan Duffy" My dad named me after an airplane which doesn't mean I can fly. Nice try though. I have to admit that your crock even rings true sometimes but your fervent Zionism is so uncharacteristic (I mean not even our own uncle Stalin is as fervently loyal…) that chances are your hard luck tales are just ruses. But, tell you what, if you re-post all your above comments in Irish, I'll buy it. & While you are at that you may also want to explain in IRISH why you peoplw keep calling me a 'nationalist.' Resisting imperialism or not identifying and serving the imperialists is not necessarily or simply nationalism (another word Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition)

@Visitor - If you are named after a plane, I'll guess it must be a Zero.

Visitor - If vanderlo were to answer you an Gaelic, how the fuck would you even be able to understand it? Where are you from anyway? It's already obvious from a place where they teach how to write coherently. And to make it perfectly clear I am from the US, don't vote for the left, not Jewish, nor do I claim allegiance to any other country or ethnic group, unless you count people who don't talk nonsense.

C'est moi,
Visitor is visiting from an alternate universe that has an alternative version of history. It seems right and wrong are reversed there. Effects determine causes and time flows backwards.
Must be really interesting over there.
Visitor, kindly tell us what the value of Pi is in your home world (or do you even have such a thing?)... Maybe you have liquid space?
Does gravity work the same way as it does here? Clearly, logic has different rules.
Asimov has a story about the dangers of contact between alternate universes. Visitor is the personafication of this very danger. I wonder how he's got a visitor's visa...

@Mr Bishi /"it must be a Zero" Such wit! U r not Bishi Bashi at all, are ya Mr?
@Grenzdebil /"Du hast eine ungesundliche obsession mit breiter Arschlochen, usw" Willst du etwa sagen dass ich BESESSEN bin? Arsch_lochen_? ArschLÖCHER, du Arschloch! Weißt nicht mal was mit breitmachen gemeint ist... Also, LERN ERST MAL DEUTSCH BEVOR DU DEUTSCH SCHREIBST, FATZKE!
@hápogó /"you can pull your pants up now..." What's this pants up, pants down business, douchebags? What exactly are you 2 stooges into? Grenzdebil & Tapsikoló-hápogó... Aren't they both douchebags, Vándorló? Be honest now! This is your chance to prove you don't go in for bullshit like you always toot your horn!

@C'est moi /"I am from the US, don't vote for the left, not Jewish, nor do I claim allegiance to any other country or ethnic group, unless you count people who don't talk nonsense..." You may be all of the above but you are/were MADE in the USA, BRAINWASHED there à la mode( a. k. a. verjudet )
@Gulliver /Aren't you confusing me with Dr Ki, Gull?

Visitor,
The only one confused about your identity is you.
Your confused sense of self is probably caused by your warped sense of "reality". Is your image in the mirror a delusion or a distortion? Is it a distorted delusion or a delusion of a distortion?

Stan. You are one of the very few individuals I have respected for your comments on these pages.
But, WW1 and WW11, are over. Why try for WW111?

"The moving finger writes
And, having writ, moves on,
Nor all thy piety, nor wit,
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it!"

Many British hated Churchill. A similar situation existed in Russia and Germany with Stalin, and Hitler, at the helm.
Re-write the history books if you wish. It was the same evil forces at work when Dresden, London, and Coventry, were being devastated. Nothing, in my opinion, can justify indiscriminate bombing.
I think we have enough problems withot raking over the mistakes of the past.
Just one last comment. Someone mentioned about the greatest threat as far as Islam is concerned is western converts. (How true.)
Look what happened in the UK not so long ago? Indiscriminate bombings were many people died.
The culprits? Westerners converted to Islam!

there is a possibility of a False flag operation..

Visitor- I asked you 2 questions. They're easy to spot as they finish with a ? Instead of rambling about how I am 'brainwashed' ( and I can't remember which moron here HP or Ricky always uses this expression) by the American Jewish cabal, how about answering the questions? (this one is rhetorical so you don't need to 'not answer' it as well).

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Reading most of your (Tunde, HP, 160, Ricky, et al) posts I am always reminded of the movie Seven where Brad Pitt asks John Doe: "When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, [writing your posts], masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how fucking crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that? "

My last question for you or any of your troop, do you?

Re. Gullenberg & Hápogó Ltd. (VERY Ltd.) /Ezek se bírták a kiképzést. Poor douchebags...

@Schuldknecht - Das war ein Typo, Dummkopf. Wenn Mann schreibt zwischen 6 Sprache mit ein Englische tastatur, macht Man manchmal Typo Fehler. Ya, Ich bin kein Deutsche. Aber du auch, Schoenhuber's Arschlecker!
Du bist wirklich ein Magyar Schiesskerl mit einer Arschloch Obsession, weil du durch deine Mutters Arschloch geboren bist.

@Grenzdebil a. k. a. Axymoron /:))) Angleutsch für totlachen! Ich bekomme _keine Luft mehr! 'Zwischen 6 Sprache'? Was soll das? Typo? :-o Meinst du Tippfehler? Ya? :))))))) Schiesskerl? Worauf schieß ich doch? Schieß ich etwa auf JUNGLE BUNNY MEN? Cuyah, he gwan lak he German eee! Da ax chop-chop mon! :) Trying to create the impression that Germans agree with you on Dresden, etc., i. e. disagree with me, mi bredda? How typical and stupid!

@Schoenhubers Schuldknecht - Ich habe gesagt das Ich kein Deutsche bin (oder Magyar - Gott sei dank). Ich habe Deutsch nur 3 monate studiert, und das war vor 20 Jahren. Also, das war kein Tippfehler, sonst ein Typo :p
Schuldknecht - Du hast auch Obsession mit Kaninchen! Hat ein Kaninchen deine Fraus Katzchen mitgespielt? :)))

@iQ 18.6 /"Ich habe Deutsch nur 3 monate studiert" Warum schreibst du denn Deutsch, Mistvieh? Was hast du eigenetlich vor, Drecksack? Arschgeige. Kaffer. Verdammte Zecke! Mach, daß du dich verpißt!

Besucher - weil du Schoenhubers Schuldknecht bist. Warum brauchst du eine woche zu antworten? Das ist ebenfalls zu langam. Ich denke, jemann hat die oben fuer dich gescrieben!
Wie findet deine Frau die schwartze schwanze? Hat geschmecks? Veillecht bist du auch halb 'kaninchen'. Hast du deine Mutter gefragt? Oder war es zu viel fuer sie zu errinnen.

@iq .986 /Can't wait for just a little more rope, douchebag? You know the magic word, *Axie… You demented, semi-literate, subhuman trash.