True Crime Blotter: Special Commonwealth Chaos Edition

Hotpaprika,
Relatives of yours? Or just soulmates, mate?

Sophist,
I believe it was you who asked about extradition (in another context).
The Zentai case above is a very good example of the complexities involved, worldwide.
Mexico for example does not extradite criminals to the US, except in "special circumstances". That's why in movies you often see criminals heading for the Mexican border.
Within the EU they generally do extradite.
Then there is Switzerland, Argentina, Bolivia, etc.
This issue is also widely misused by extremists of all stripes.

Last time I checked, there were quite a few Hungarians who wouldn't mind going back to being a Monarchy. I'm sure good ol' Bessie wouldn't mind offering her advice on how best to go about it.

:) omg if it is something hungarians don't need it is advice. they have enough for everyone.

Looking at the current crop of "democratically" elected leaders (Obama pending), monarchy is starting to look pretty damn good.

Going back to a Monarchy? Where would you find a Hapsburg who would be willing to rule over this country again? There hasn't been a Hungarian on the throne (royal that is) since Zápolya almost 450 years ago.

He may not be a Habsburg, but he's more than ready to assume the throne: http://www.pestiside.hu/20071009/because-hungarian-politics-werent-weird-enough-already/

Doesn't have to be a Hapsburg, how about we institute the search for a modern monarchy equivalent, along the lines of Megasztar?

Basically, if we go back far enough, the monarch was just the person who was stronger, meaner, more cunning and devious than those around him -so the only criterea for the show is the willingness to shaft the person next to you.

We can mix Big Brother in and have a house of wannabee "monarchs" from various areas of Hungary living in Visegradi castle and doing various "tasks" to prove their worthiness, after which they are voted out or not (premium rate telephone line of course).

Once we have a winner, we crown him/her the king/queen of Hungary.

It's democratic monarchism!

If we get the TV rights sorted, we may have enough to fund the purhcase some Ujvidek back!

Any TV producers here?

Uh, Gargoyle, I think you pretty much just described the existing Hungarian political process... though under your plan, we'd have to suffer even more, by watching Feri and Viki bicker over who forgot to clean up the bathroom. My vote remains for just liquidating the Hungarian state and seeing how things go with lightly EU-supervised anarchy.

@ Erik

"My vote remains for just liquidating the (Hungarian) state and seeing how things go with lightly EU-supervised anarchy.

I think you will find that you, sir, are describing the current EU political situation post credit-crunch.

:-)

Suddenly I am feeling optimistic :)

Gulliver's suggestion sounds like a winner...you could shift administration to Vienna. Oh wait... ;)

What kind of bloodthirsty, inhuman scum would hound 80/90 year
old wretches to death to get his ton of flesh? The kind that drops
cluster bombs on kindergartens and schools, shoots little girls in
the head 15 times, to not mention the stuff that isn't even fit to
print on Pestiside, I guess...

@ was an interesting thread until VISITOR entered...Oh poor poor accused Hungarian-Australian war criminal Charles Zentai who hasn`t had his day in court and Visitor thinks because there are other bastards out there killing, poor old Charles the Nazi who might have been part of killing millions in the death camps can`t really be so bad and old age is a `Get out of jail free card`? What`s the worst that could happen, they give him life and the old codger gets locked away for a few years and dies in jail.
VISITOR ...Imagine, you have a family and some old fart aged 80/90 breaks into your family home and execute your family with a gun and a butchers knife.
Tell me you wouldn`t hound the 80/90 year
old wretch to death to get his ton of flesh?
Have you got the balls to answer that without insulting me?
Truck driver Gábor Fuksz CLASSIC Name....

Bernie,
The war ended more than 60 years ago. A lot of war criminals have already died in peace, leave the old fart alone already. The war criminals who planned and executed the Dresden Holocaust got away with their horrible crime against humanity, didn't they? It's time to pay attention to the genocide that's taking place now in Israel and other parts of the world.

So Stan, are you proposing a statute of limitations on genocide?

Whilst I think chasing the old boy after all these years looks awful and serves no real purpose in terms of his crimes - I think sometimes people need to see justice being done.

Re Dreseden, do you also want to arrest the inventors of the V1 and V2 bombs and the executives of BMW and Mercedes for their role in manufacturing the means of war (we can add GM,GE and a few others too)?

War is war, and in a global conflict like WW2, one would hope that we would learn not to repeat the same, murderous mistakes. Seems not.

And what is more worrying is some of the comments in this blog that focus anger and hate on a particular ethinic group. By dehumanising them and objectifying them, we prepare the groundwork for genocide in the future.

So Stan, should we also arrest Jobbik members for their "intent" before it becomes action?

Your correct Gargoyle, seems the hate is directed at Hungarians, poor sods! Hope the Hungarians will forgive but never forget the tragedies they faced during the world wars and current oppression. Thanks again for highlighting this Mr. Gargoyle. @Stan Dresden is just one of many examples of war crimes committed by the Allied forces and Russians, but seems it's Taboo to highlight these facts of history, I am so chuffed that at least there are some awoken people, cheers mate! And Mr Gargoyle, seems hanging around drainpipes would have rinsed your brain of this hatred..with Love!

Gargoyle,
I believe it's time to get over the past. Jews were not the only victims of WWII, but no one seems to care about the rest. Why is shooting one Jew in the time of war 65 years ago is a bigger crime than bombing a school in Palestine? Where this double standard comes from? The Gaza massacre went largely unnoticed by governments around the world. It was a month ago, why is there no investigations and Nuremberg Trials? What's with the Wiesenthal Center? No comment?

"So Stan, should we also arrest Jobbik members for their "intent" before it becomes action?"

I'm not the one who's acting on "intent". The Iraq war was based on "intent to use WMD" and Israel is busy trying to push the US into another war with Iran this time, on suspicion of intent to produce nukes. Hope they don't succeed. The last thing we need now is yet another bloody war over imaginary WMDs.

Stan and HP,

I absolutely have no hatred in my heart for Hungarians; I love 'em! (De tenyleg!)

History is written by the victors, and in this you are right to say that the perspectives on attrocities are different, based on who holds the power and media.

But short of trying to revise history, and honestly wanting to take this conversation forward, how do you propose to create your "szebb jovo"?

Surely it can't be by commiting the same mistakes as in the past; I can't belives that Jews are still THE most burning issue in Hungary, or that focusing on differences outweighs the benefits of unity? I woudl argue that Hungary needs the second alot more than the first?

Not sure what papers you guys read, but I saw nothing but Gaza while it was happening, and in terms of war crimes I think there is a case on both sides. Funny enough proportionality of attack is deemed a war crime, but they have yet to define "the proportion that oversteps the mark" so the Isreali's may get by on that technicality. On the other hand, aimlessly lobbing rockets into civilian areas is also identified as a war crime, so looks like Hamas will get the shit-end of that stick.

I guess we need to look at who makes the rules as much as who writes the history - methinks the answers may be the same?

G

"Now let me be clear. Israel’s security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. (applause)"

"And Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided. (stronger applause, standing ovation)".

Questions: Who said the above, when, where and why?

Sounds like Obama's speech at AIPAC on the campaign trail last year.

Why? I think if you look at the whole speech he was refering to the larger picture;

"Let me be clear. Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided."

then..

"I have no illusions that this will be easy. It will require difficult decisions on both sides. But Israel is strong enough to achieve peace, if it has partners who are committed to the goal. Most Israelis and Palestinians want peace, and we must strengthen their hand. The United States must be a strong and consistent partner in this process — not to force concessions, but to help committed partners avoid stalemate and the kind of vacuums that are filled by violence. That's what I commit to do as president of the United States."

Your point?

Gargoyle:
"Your point?"

1. Why do US candidates need AIPAC approval?

2. Why is Israel's security more important than Palestine's?

3. Where did Obama get the Jerusalem part? "Capitol of Israel, undivided"? Obama doesn't even know that Jerusalem IS divided and should stay that way as it's the holy site for most major religions? Is this intentional disrespect for Christianity and Islam or sucking up for Jewish campaign contributions?

4. How can we expect a better chance for Middle-East peace when our president clearly advocates one-sided support for Israel?

This has been going on for too long with no end in sight. The only reasonable solution I can imagine would be an ultimatum by the US: restore the 1947 borders and enforce them, by UN troops if necessary, create two separate sovereign states, put together a quick aid and an economic recovery package for Palestine, and tell both sides to stay put and shut up for a while.
If the US doesn't put its weight behind a fair solution it will unlikely to happen since reasonable people are the minority on both sides, revenge and retaliations will go on forever.

Stan
1. Why do US candidates need AIPAC approval?
They don't, but as a black muslim running for president, he needed their votes, I think all presidents have!

2. Why is Israel's security more important than Palestine's?

My humble opinion is that as Israel's existence depends on the US, the US can be pretty sure they have a partner in the region who is tied in, and on their side. What I would add though, ironically, is thatPalestinian security is probably better as a result of Israel's involvement than without. How long do you think Palestne would stay independent if they were a separate state before they became an extension of Syria or Iran, and a launch pad for conflict. within minutes of the Israeli withdrawl from gaza, Hamas were executing "traitors" who just happened to also be Fatah supporters

3. Where did Obama get the Jerusalem part? "Capitol of Israel, undivided"? Obama doesn't even know that Jerusalem IS divided and should stay that way as it's the holy site for most major religions? Is this intentional disrespect for Christianity and Islam or sucking up for Jewish campaign contributions?

I agree. Playing to the crowd witha stupid line. Jerusalem is also Christian and Muslim. I think his words were tactical (for the election) rather than strategic intent now that he has power. we shall see.

4. How can we expect a better chance for Middle-East peace when our president clearly advocates one-sided support for Israel?

I think he knows what to say to who. He has promised to go to a muslm country, I am looking forward to see what he says to them. I reckon the chances are better now than when Bush was in, though it will not be easy. My personal opinion, is that Obama will look for Muslim "friendlies" to bring into the fold (Clinton in Indonesia as her first trip!) and isolate the really edgy ones within their own community.

"This has been going on for too long with no end in sight. The only reasonable solution I can imagine would be an ultimatum by the US: restore the 1947 borders.. etc"

I think it would be workable, but until the surrounding states that are arming and funding and cajoling the use of violence are addresses, i fear that the borders would never last. The 1947 borders put Tel-Aviv within current rocket range, so there is no way they will do that until the states allwoing tunnels into the strip and soldiers over the border are stopped.

A pre-requisite would have to be each country recognising the other!

All I want to know is, why does everyone spend so much time worrying about Israel/Palestine, as compared to (for example) Nagorno-Karabakh? Isn't it all just differnt tribes of restless natives fighting over some far-away deserts none of us are likely to ever see?

Erik,
Couldn't agree more.

There is Sri Lanka and the genocide there, Zimbabwe and the genocide via mismanagement there, as well hundreds of other examples of the strong and powerful shafting the weak.

Why Israel/Palestine?: cause it's an easy drum for facists to beat that pulls more sensible people to their cause ("everyone hates a jew"), as well as a banner around which to rally and persduade moderate muslims to hate Israel and the West? ("the infidels are crusading against us again")

Israel/Palestine si the "cause of the moment" for allowing folks to be anti-semmetic in a socially acceptable way!

@Lemuel & the True Believers /OK, let's see the kind of folk
Israel and their Aussie whores DON'T extradite. Israel won't
extradite scum like *Shlomo Morel,* commandant of the
Swietochlowice death camp whose "favourite method of killing
prisoners was hacking the skull of his victims with a wooden leg
of a chair… In one instance a man was sealed in a barrel in
which nails had been hammered through the side. The barrel
was then rolled around the camp until he bled to death. Another
survivor claims people were forced to lie on top of each other
forming a huge pyramid, until those at the bottom were
crushed. (John Sack, An Eye for an Eye, Basic Books, 1993) and
other Soviet Israelite extermination camp commanders in Russia
and Russian occupied Europe. War criminals are usually
extradited from countries that otherwise don't extradite except
Israel that routinely claimed that the statue of limitations
expired for its own war criminals
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel#Extradition_controversy
while demanding the extradition of Zentai and others forever.
Israel doesn't even extradite common murderers like *Samuel
Sheinbein* simply because they are "Jews" regardless of their
citizenship. & Australia refused to extradite Vajda Tibor an ÁVO
torturer and mass murderer ( éjjelente teherautószámra szórták
bele a tetemeket az előre megásott, nagy gödrökbe) whose
lawyer in Hungary was the legendary "körmös/fingernail Bauer"
named so for his fondness of ripping off prisoners fingernails
with pliers
terrorhaza.hu/hirek/rolunk/egy_bnos_jogos_bnhdese.html And
Zentai isn't even guilty as charged, he's just another Hungarian
Demjanjuk. @Bernie: "Charles the Nazi who might have been
part of killing millions in the death camps… What's the worst
that could happen, they give him life and the old codger gets
locked away for a few years and dies in jail… Imagine, you have
a family and some old fart aged 80/90 breaks into your family
home and execute your family with a gun and a butchers
knife…" Come on, Bernie, don’t be such a stereotype. People will
say I hired you to play the obnoxious arrogant moron to whip up
"antisemitism" You don't want me to go to prison for ten years,
do you?
@Gargoyle: "we prepare the groundwork for genocide in the
future" IN THE FUTURE? How about NOW in Gaza or RECENTLY
in Jenin and Lebanon. Or doesn't that interest any of you
enlightened folks? Oh, I get it: only you "Jews" matter, right?

@Erik: "Isn't it all just differnt tribes of restless natives fighting over
some far-away deserts none of us are likely to ever see?" It is
indeed. & we only bitch about the ones we pay for with our own
wealth, security and blood. We're so selfish.

Visitor
How about NOW in Gaza or RECENTLY in Jenin and Lebanon. Or doesn't that interest any of you
enlightened folks? Oh, I get it: only you "Jews" matter, right?

Actually,no!

But I think that genocide committed by people other than jews is equally deserving of our attention. It is the Far Right's insistence that the only attrocities worth demonstrating against are those committed by Jews, Gypsies etc that alienates me from that cause.

If you want to demonstrate against genocide and abuse in front of the Israeli, Zimbabwe, Iranian, Sri Lankan and Chinese embassy, I would happily be there alongside you. The list could be a lot longer, and nobody here is kidding themselves that Israel is innocent here!

But if all you do is choose the Israeli's (sorry "Jews") to target your anti-semmetic and racist abuse, then I don't feel comfortable standing next to people who are that blinkered, and are obviously only interested in their own agenda.

I mean seriously, blaming the jews alone belongs in a Monty Pythonm sketch! (splitters!)

Seriously, if you feel as strongly about abuse and crimes against humanity as you seem to be, then widen the scope, more moderately-minded people would be engaged I think?

G

Gargoyle,

"blaming the jews alone".

You must have missed Visitors comment above:

"we only bitch about the ones we pay for with our own wealth, security and blood. We're so selfish."

What happens in the Middle-East affects all of us, that's why it gets more attention. It's not (or not only) a humanitarian issue, we are all paying for this madness, and we have the right to express our opinion about it.

I don't know if you really believe it or just using the prepared liberal cliche when you consider everyone racist, nazi, fascist, anti-semite, etc. for not supporting Israel. I know, it's your "new anti-semitism" doctrine, we are only criticizing Zionism to live out our anti-semite fantasies. Well, you have to do better than that.
Most people don't choose to be anti-anything for no reason and then start collecting evidence that fits the agenda. It's the other way around, and many reasonable Jews know it and suffering from it. As long as Jews can do whatever they want and no one can say a word, it will generate a lot of bad feelings. It would serve everyone's best interest if Israel, the Zionist and the supporting Jews would make an honest effort to adjust and admit every now and then that they are not completely free of errors. There are groups of enlightened Jews in Israel who oppose the atrocities and willing to give Palestinians a fair deal. Polls taken during the recent Gaza massacre showed that 94% of Israel's population approved it, which leaves 6% for the reasonable folks. Read user comments on Jerusalem Post if you want to see genocidal feelings from both Israeli and USA readers. They want to "exterminate the vermin", so what makes you believe that Jews are saints and everyone else is wrong?

Stan,

"we only bitch about the ones we pay for with our own wealth, security and blood. We're so selfish."

I see, so you are saying that your hatred of the Jews in Hungary is down to what the Jews in Israel are doing? If I could see the separation here, it may even make sense. It's just that you manage to attack your "golden 6%" along with your "bad" 94%. Not to mention any jew who lives outside of Israel and may also feel the same as that 6%.

What happens in the Middle-East affects all of us, that's why it gets more attention. It's not (or not only) a humanitarian issue, we are all paying for this madness, and we have the right to express our opinion about it.

You do. And should attribute blame to where it lies and not across a broad spectrum of people just because they share a religion; for me that's the difference between a humanist agenda and a facist one.

I don't know if you really believe it or just using the prepared liberal cliche when you consider everyone racist, nazi, fascist, anti-semite, etc. for not supporting Israel.

Nope, I am using the cliche of common sense when I say that comments about people based on their race, creed, religion alone are racist. If it's about the actions and behavior of Israel as a country, I agree - I just don;t automatically paint all Jews with the same brush.

G

Click on me
http://www.parom.hu/main.php?page=member_data&member_id=332365

Hotpaprika
we left a message for you on your facebook page check it out ASAP

Fuck Nacivadasz Szovetseg and the hotpaprika impersonator asshole.

I am lonely!!!
Looking for a nice Hungarian woman ,no Jews, gypsys please
Look me up on google. Type into the search box: hotpaprika 332365
read all about me and see my photos
http://www.parom.hu/main.php?page=member_data&member_id=332365
Hi,
Im originally from Australia. I Have settled in Hungary to live and work and experience Europe. I was born in Australia however my parents are Hungarian and I did learn to speak a little Hungarian and I am looking for a friend or campanion.
I am outgoing, free thinking and love to enjoy life, which life to me is a mystery which I hope to solve, and if I dont I can say at least I didn't die not trying.
I enjoy fitness , martial arts, alternative lifestyle, live music, jazz, dancing, Dinning, cooking, outdoors, beaches, forrests, nature, reading, movies and meeting interesting positive people. So if you like to meet and chat please dont hesitate to get intouch.

Hi,
I'd like to meet a nice Hungarian woman, who can scream loudly, fight intergalactic menaces to existence and can fix an Inverted Time Displacement Circuitboard with her eyes closed.

Visit my webpage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(Doctor_Who)
for more information and my contact details. Also you'll find some recent pix of me there.

You owe me one HP for taking the above off the 'Recent Comments' box. Loving the pix though dude. Very Ozzie-ubermensche indeedy.

I am lonely!!!
Looking for a nice Hungarian woman ,no Jews, gypsys please
Look me up on google. Type into the search box: hotpaprika 332365
read all about me and see my photos
http://www.parom.hu/main.php?page=member_data&member_id=332365
Hi,
Im originally from Australia. I Have settled in Hungary to live and work and experience Europe. I was born in Australia however my parents are Hungarian and I did learn to speak a little Hungarian and I am looking for a friend or campanion.
I am outgoing, free thinking and love to enjoy life, which life to me is a mystery which I hope to solve, and if I dont I can say at least I didn't die not trying.
I enjoy fitness , martial arts, alternative lifestyle, live music, jazz, dancing, Dinning, cooking, outdoors, beaches, forrests, nature, reading, movies and meeting interesting positive people. So if you like to meet and chat please dont hesitate to get intouch.

Looks like a stitch-up to me. But oddly enough I think I know (of) that guy, via a friend in London.

@Will: There's obviously been a crime committed here. This is clearly a case of mis-labelling/selling of goods: "Szexuális beállítottsága: heteroszexuális"

Chortle. Having drawn interested parties' attention to this, I should be careful what I say. But if it's the same bloke, then I'm pretty sure he isn't 'in the gays.' Also (fairly) sure he doesn't share HotPaprika's politics, so I'm intrigued as to who's doing a number on him.

Could be the same guy Will. All photos were removed today and replaced by a pic of the Silver Surfer. I really think it was our resident foaming-at-the-mouth Ozzie hatemonger. Poor guy. Complete invasion of privacy.

@Whoever posted the link details for HP's dating page. Not very nice. You can't fight fire with fire, it only brings you down to the same level. Did I use rayguns and weapons against the Cybermen? Of course not. I used nail-polish remover instead.
So HP's comments can be quite nasty but he keeps it to just posting comments never posting links to personal photos of his online sparring partners. But thanks anyway, now I know who to set old pansexual Capt.Jack onto.

Yes it is me! Im not ashamed to be looking for love! Somebody hacked into my parom.hu account right after i posted the link here, i had to create a new account, if you want to see my photos my new id at parom.hu is 737575 or you can link on my name below, Szebb Jovot and thanks my Fuehrer!

Careful, retarded hotpaprika impersonator, if you get caught you'll be sorry. These nacivadasz antics can get you into a heap of trouble.

Stan,
Mindless antisemitism can also get you into lots of trouble.
Hotpaprika was simply exposed. Nothing new was added to his various profiles. He is all over the place. Look for him on flickr *people search*.
Hotpaprika, you can still stop this by replying to the e-mail we sent you.

"Nacivadasz". Could you pick a more retarded name than that? Being anti-nacivadasz doesn't make anyone anti-semite. You morons generate more anti-semitism than any real nazi could. Is that your hidden agenda? Post your obnoxious Stalin Youth propaganda to make enemies and then call them anti-semite? Grow up! This country has plenty of serious problems, the last thing we need is your kind of troublemakers. Even the heavily biased Kuruc info is more intelligent and balanced than your best efforts. If you want to do something good for the country, stop the nonsense.

@Stan /"What happens in the Middle-East affects all of us… we are all paying for this madness," not to mention our HISTORY: Kun, Szamuely, Rákosi, Péter Gábor… Or the current colonization of Hungary: They are _flooding_ in like they once flooded into Palestine. We have "Jewish" settlements with their own customs and immigration run by Shin Bet, where Hungarians, HUNGARIAN OFFICIALS are off limits. They have a state within our state already, unchecked, accountable to no one… Of course we're alarmed.
@Doktor Ki (v.12) /"HP's comments can be quite nasty" Such as?
@Gargoyle /"if you feel as strongly about abuse and crimes against humanity as you seem to be, then widen the scope, more moderately-minded people would be engaged I think?" You almost got me there Wilbur. I almost said: SOME PIG! But then I remembered your "Mammon would approve" remark... And, just what did you mean by those YouTube links? "should attribute blame to where it lies and not across a broad spectrum of people just because they share a religion" But I do! Have you noticed how I always write quote- unquote "Jew?" Do you know why? And stop calling us racist. Hungarians don't even have a word for racist.
@Görényi: "Mindless antisemitism can also get you into lots of trouble" No shit. What kind of trouble? &, what if it's NOT mindless? How about WELL JUSTIFIED? "Hotpaprika, you can still stop this by replying to the e-mail we sent you" "We" as in _plural? Like both http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSAvaYY-y7Q of you Nazi Hunters, Gábor?

Visitor,

Don't know who your "Wilbur" person is, but it is not me I can assure you. I can't therefore answer for the quote you attributed to me/him?

My links were posted cos I like them and thought others may get a kick out of them, there is no hidden political message in there.

Hungarians don't have a word for Whiskey either, but doesn't stop them drinking it. I call anyone racist who makes sweeping generalisations about a race of people that are based primarily on the fact that are of a different race. Not all Hungarians are racist, but that some racists happen to be Hungarian (and other nationalities) is undeniable.

Here's an objective source defintion for you:

rac⋅ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

As HP, Ricsi, Stan have fit into the above defnition, I feel that the word applies to them.

G

Gargoyle - Wilbur is the pig from 'Green Acres'

C'est moi,

Thanks,

I just thought it was another poster called Wilbur that Visitor was alluding to? He also think I am "the fuzz" so I guess it all makes sense now.

He is very high-brow with his metaphors from literature and cinema - think we are talking another 160 IQ here!

G

I think Visitor's reference to a pig named Wilbur was actually from Charlotte's Web.

I loved Charlotte's web, happy to be that Wilbur!

My bad- Of course it's the pig from 'Charlotte's Web' not 'Green Acres'. That pig's name is Arnold Ziffel.

Gargoyle,
"As HP, Ricsi, Stan have fit into the above defnition, I feel that the word applies to them".

Apparently it's you with a load of prejudice.
You really believe that anyone who may disagree with some of the Jews is automatically a racist anti-semite who hates all Jews.

You also believe that there's no such thing as typical gypsy crime, and as soon as we stop calling them gypsies, they will become nice and friendly.

Well, you prefer taking words out of context to prove your "point", and conveniently miss everything else I post.

Your group has one serious problem: you come to the discussion with the "absolute truth" and everyone who disagrees will be called various names. You guys must have read a few books, not necessarily the good ones, and somehow developed a fuzzy ideology. You're trying to make your impression of reality fit into that.
I on the other hand come from many years of real life experience and try to find or make up an ideology that's suitable to change reality for the better.
Big difference, no wonder we're having trouble communicating with each other. I'm not as comfortable with bending the truth and the facts as you are.

Stan,
"Apparently it's you with a load of prejudice.
You really believe that anyone who may disagree with some of the Jews is automatically a racist anti-semite who hates all Jews."

Actually, Stan, I am prejudice against racists.
I have said in this blog that I disagree with Israel's crimes but refuse to damn ALL jews because of the actions of their government.

Disagreeing with the actions of some jews is fine and obviously not anti-semmetic; it's the same as disagreeing with the crimes of some gypsies or the racism of some Hungarians or the stupidity of some ex-pats!. None of these mean an attack on the race/nation as a whole.

"You also believe that there's no such thing as typical gypsy crime, and as soon as we stop calling them gypsies, they will become nice and friendly."

I don't think it matters what you call them (within reason) but the minute you start calling ALL of them thieves,scum etc you set the tone for a conversation going nowhere, as even the ones who have never stolen in their lives are "marked".

"Well, you prefer taking words out of context to prove your "point", and conveniently miss everything else I post."

My paraphrase related to freedom of speech, I thought is was relevant to the point at the time; if I 'missed" a post by you - it's not intentional

"Your group has one serious problem: you come to the discussion with the "absolute truth" and everyone who disagrees will be called various names".

I have no absolute truth or group - I have also said that here. I have never called you any name other than the one you use; Stan.

"You guys must have read a few books, not necessarily the good ones, and somehow developed a fuzzy ideology."

I think the confusing part is that I DON'T have an ideology. I have no position to defend here Stan, which is why I am happy to chat about it and not take it as personally as some. I enjoy the dialogue, respect your point of view, but reserve the right to disagree with you where I feel and to admit I don't understand something.

"I on the other hand come from many years of real life experience and try to find or make up an ideology that's suitable to change reality for the better.Big difference, no wonder we're having trouble communicating with each other. I'm not as comfortable with bending the truth and the facts as you are."

I also rely on life experience, but rather than "find or make up an ideology" I learned to speak with people and try to listen.

Visitor,
You said (above):
"And stop calling us racist. Hungarians don't even have a word for racist."
I beg to differ.
Racist in Hungarian is 'fajgyűlölő'.
You and Stan should read up on the subject a bit. You may want to start here:
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasszizmus

Gulliver,
You just don't give up, do you?
How many times do I have to explain that I don't care about race or ethnicity? I'm not going around hating Jews for being Jews. I'm concerned about the behavior of certain hostile groups who happen to be Jews. Militant Zionists and exclusive Hasidic communities are only typical of Jews, you don't see that among other races. I do have a problem with these specific groups, not ALL Jews, but SOME.
You are born into an ethnic group, but you CHOOSE to participate in religious or political interest groups. Is this clear now? I have no issues with my physician, dentist, lawyer, etc., who also happen to be of Jewish origin, but they don't play the "chosen people" game, don't dress funny and don't run around with Israeli flags in Budapest to show their support of the massacre in Palestine.
So lay off the "racist" and "anti-semite" labels, try something more original.

Stan,
I didn't realize that you were 'Visitor' or his agent.
What you are saying above makes little sense and it is in direct contradiction with many of your previous comments. Those comments have a clear pattern of intolerance.
You say/imply that you are willing to accept Jews, Gypsies and other minorities as long as they behave the way you approve of. Clearly, you don't approve the way many of them behave, which (in your mind) justifies your hating them. That is irrational, unjust, racist and decidedly unhelpful, especially when dealing with complex issues, such as crime, race, war, justice, etc.
If you would just use a little more of your common sense (which you seem to have) and a little less of your prejudicies and preconcieved notions we could get somewhere more tolerable and acceptable to all.

@Stan - sorry, but what you just said was a load of bull. Over the past year, I've seen you write racist remarks (see Gargoyle's definition 1 & 3) about blacks, arabs, chinese, japanese, russians, muslims, french, africans... I can go on.
Your comments were generally directed at ALL members in general of those countries, races or religions I highlighted.
Re "militant zionist & hasidic communities" not being present in other communities - you do find equivalents in many other countries and cultures. Their 'goals' or 'membership exclusivity' may be slightly different, but their methods tend in similar directions (which are also racist, if case you think I'm defending the Zionists or Hasidics). Eg The KKK would be a similar sort of group in the US with its own racial, political, and social objectives. The Garda in Hungary could be another.

Gulliver,
"I didn't realize that you were 'Visitor' or his agent."

I am not. You addressed part of your comment to "you and Stan", so I responded to the "Stan" part. I'm sure Visitor is more than capable of representing himself.

As for being racist because I'm not very fond of hostile groups, that's your opinion. If you want to see real racism, wonder into a Hasidic town, like I did some time ago by accident. These people hate strangers, and they are all Jews. Why no one ever look far racism there?
Again, all Hasidics are Jews, but not all Jews are Hasidics. (I'm really tired of having to repeat this over and over).

UJ,
I refuse to insert "smilies" and other indicators of sarcasm and making fun of outrageous comments posted by others. Just because I occasionally write about eliminating the human race, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to do it. You just can't be serious all the time in this crazy world.
I don't think you're serious when you compare the KKK and the Garda, or are you?

@Stan - I agree - you cant be serious all the time, especially on this website. Nothing to do with 'smiles' or 'eliminating' anyone. The elimination part, anyone can see it was in jest, and taken as such. However, your many negative comments frequently reflect a racial (not intellectual) superiority attitude, or an intolerance of other races. I dont lump you in the same boat as HP & Ricsi, but Van is correct in saying you share many of the same biases.
KKK & Garda - Similar to an extent - like the Zionists, their policies and directed actions often define citizens' rights & privileges in society by their narrow definitions (eg WASPS or Magyar). They have differing means of achieving their objectives but I think that's probably limited (sometimes) by the application of laws at the point in time.

Stan

You said "I do have a problem with these specific groups, not ALL Jews, but SOME."

And I think this is the closest we have come to seeing eye-to eye. I think where the impasse may be is that most other people would insert the words "the actions of" between "but" and "SOME".

I know it looks pedantic and petty like this, but it does make the difference between you looking like you are hating a group because of who they are, rather than hating what they are doing in the name of their group.

I also hate the actions of some people in the name of a group; and can include the US Govt, UK Govt, Hungarian Govt etc in that; but do not hate all Americans, Brits or Hungarians as a result - no matter how they dress or appear different or speak.

G

I see it is now open season on Stan, following me, Farkas László, HotP and Ricsi (and by the way, there is probably very little we all agree on on "this side"). I would suggest all the „selective free speech”-ers take this topic over to Varangy, as internet hate speech is his post of yesterday: Magyarországon túl nagy a szólásszabadság http://varangy.blogspot.com but then he would chew you up and spit you out.

I for one, am not a fan of what is totally free speech, because it is often abused, but if you are going to claim to have it, then it is hypocritical to ban anything on a site like Pesticide, where except for a couple of PC topics, nothing is sacred (even castrating, or selfcastration of a Hungarian). And on the Zentai thing no one is even bothered to discuss Stan's and Visitor's point on double standards, also covered by Varangy: http://varangy.blogspot.com/2008/08/zentai-kroly.html), because that would require something more than just calling them nazis.

And Vándorló: “(Stan) Until you lot came along people did actually discuss things discursively. More importantly, with a sense of perspective, self-mockery and doubt.” HA! This if for someone whose outlook is so onesided, and whose attitude is so superior, that I could think you are some sort of paid neoliberal agent. But it is worse, you believe that stuff you copy from Mihályi Péter and co.! “The escalation of intimidation and tension is bound result in a lot of collateral damage”. Please! You were in at the start of this. And I find it hard to believe you were not behind trying to identify me and Farkas László, the language and style of attack is too similar, you are doing IP and other searches regularly, and the only thing you objected to was being confused with Germinator when I accidentally included him in my charge.

@Tünde: "stuff you copy" Thanks, but I've copied nothing. When I quote or reference, I do just that and it's clear. Though I note your comments fit the academic practice internationally ("Egy embertől lopni: plágium, sok embertől lopni: kutatás.")
"You were in at the start of this." Oh, yes you're right. Sorry!
Are you actually going to start answering any of the points I've put to you then, or is this just another public hissy fit? About 2 months ago, you just up and decided you weren't going to answer my questions 'cos you didn't like them. Are you ready to start? Really?!
As for the identity tracing etc... it's much simpler than you can imagine. I know Farkas László, though he may not remember me. And you are too easy to locate. Just like Ricsi and HP you said far too much about yourselves, far too much. By far the easiest way to crack any network is through social engineering and you are all too puffed up and proud to notice when you are saying too much. If your privacy and anonymity matters then concentrate on the argument, not on trying to prove (as *you* often do) that because of who/what you are your words have added meaning. I stated clearly as Vándorló exactly what I do as standard practice and that I had stopped running background tasks due to the unease you and others had felt about this.
As for Varangy it is great to see him back. The cretins that plagued this forum could and should have the decency to learn from him. He never backs down, always responds to arguments, gives sources. He always insults, but never your intelligence. Almost the complete opposite of these cretins.
And I will take one of my arguments (in the discursive sense) with you there. Namely on your understanding of "kulturgenetikusan öröklődő viselkedésformák" ('culturally genetically inherited patterns of behavior' as you translate it). But given the topic, your haughtiness and my 'superiority complex', coupled with the Varangy's usual hospitality, don't expect it to be pleasant. And don't whinge about it.

Stan,
I know just what you mean!
Those hassidic Jews are frightening, their black clothes, beards and pajesz. Not to mention that they have crucified our Lord Jesus Christ. Sing Sing must be full of vicious rabbis and violent jeshiva students.
The only people scarier than hassidim are the Pennsylvania Dutch, IMHO, you know, the Amish! Wassup with their horse buggies clogging up all the roads??!!?? And their buttonless garments just freak me out.
Maybe the Hungarian Guard could make them see the light and teach them how to behave like normal human beings.

Tunde

"I for one, am not a fan of what is totally free speech, because it is often abused, but if you are going to claim to have it, then it is hypocritical to ban anything on a site like Pesticide."

I think you are right, free speech is often abused, most often when it is "hate speech" and racist vitriol disguised as somebody's "right" to self-expression. Whether it's nazi's hijacking the Gaza issue for their own purposes, or Palestinian "empathisers" using the opportunity to smash up shops in London.

I don't think (or agree) that anyone needs to be banned or that comments need to be banned as such, but the right to have a dialogue, even between two groups who don't agree, shouldn't need personal insult or require repetition of a hateful ideology as a response. It's just, boring and doesn't go anywhere.

Let's face it, calling each other names based on our point of view is just cowardice (whoever does it). I doubt that face-to-face, any of these people would say that to each other, or at least would say it in the knowledge that there is the risk of a left hook.

I have obviously come into this half way through something, so can;t comment on the history of this. From my own point of view I have enjoyed chatting with Stan, regardless of his point of view, and he has been pretty respectful and non-insulting to me. So,whilst it may be open season on neo-facists who would just throw insults instead of argument, I have no problem with my dialgoue with Stan so far.

Will check out the site you suggested, sounds like a blast.

G

Visitor.
Corruption exists in all countries, and sometimes the cynical part of me thinks that really a lower corruption score just means it has been legalised. Greed and corruption are not exclusively Hungarian traits, although, to borrow from Lee Kuan Yew, when you're on an aircraft carrier, it matters less if some are not in the right place, but in a canoe, it makes a huge difference. Hungary is a small country and so corruption affects it a hell of a lot more than somewhere like the UK or US.
I do think Hungary needs systemic reform. The problem is, you can’t exactly put an entire country’s economy on ‘bypass’ while you do a heart and lung transplant, especially when the side-effects would devastate the most vulnerable members of the population. Hungary needs an inspiring and intelligent leader, but as I understand, the available choices are limited and ultimately, what good is a good leader if no-one is willing or able to follow? Also, as I said ages ago, Hungary SHOULD be a candidate for large scale debt cancellation especially since it is one of the few countries that has NOT defaulted. I think unrestricted capitalism leads to a huge gap between rich and poor and makes it possible for wealthy countries to exploit or neglect the less affluent. Some protectionism can be worthwhile, as long as it doesn’t end up working against the country’s long-term interests. I also think it’s hypocritical for wealthy countries to complain about others’ use of tariffs etc when trying to gain access to a market, but then subsidise their own unprofitable industries to kill competition. (eg: US grain subsidies) I think Hungary’s govt is painfully inefficient, and could afford to be smaller. I think the imbalance of tax-payers to welfare recipients is a big problem, which is why I have no problem with work for welfare programmes.I don’t consider myself either ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’; both have things I agree and disagree with. I do believe in compassion and equality, but I also think that too much of the warm and fuzzies doesn’t make for astute or pragmatic economic choices. For what it's worth, I don't think democracy is the be all and end all of government. In some cases, limited democracy does work. (eg: Singapore or Russia during the early Putin period) (Putin is getting too scary now) I also don't have a problem with Monarchy, although there is always a risk of some complete incompetent inheriting power. (this still happens in democracy too though)

(CONT)
The bottom line (for me) is this. Hungary has some big problems, many of them inherited from the communists (and further back). It is clear that the system of government it has had since the end of the communist era has not really been a great success either and so perhaps it would be better to have something different. (I guess that is up to Hungarians. Maybe some kind of constitutional monarchy might work, but perhaps the issue is where the balance of power lies) I think it is in everybody’s interests to have a healthy Hungary, and that pursuing old debts is really a ‘blood from a stone’ situation. So, pre-1990 debt should be forgiven or at the very least should be interest free from now on. Hungary should also be allowed to protect some industries in the interests of securing employment and building some stability.
The trick is, as my research supervisor says, to find someone who will ‘invite’ you to develop. He is an expert on Asia and often talks about how the ‘miracle’ of the Tiger economies is really a bit false because these countries had the advantage of being strategically important economically and militarily. I am not saying Hungary is not significant, but it does contribute to the problem that while during communism Hungary was kind of a crack in the iron curtain and therefore became a popular place to send money, now that that ‘advantage’ is gone, so too is the commitment to development. Hmm. Not unlike my experience with the police.
These are just some of my thoughts. I don’t claim to be an economist (I have my doubts about economists anyway) nor do I have any illusions about the solution for Hungary being "just a matter of..." I think the road to improvement is long and winding. I really wish Hungarians the best and hope that things will get better.
…and for the sake of clarity, I don’t mean to sound like I am simply prescribing solutions in some kind of condescending way, nor am I saying that Hungary is the only country with big problems. I guess I have always worked on the assumption that as this is a forum about Hungary, that this is the country of interest, and that talking in depth about other countries would be long, boring and kind of irrelevant.
...could still write more, but I think I should shut up now.

Vándorló: So you are the psychopath, yes I was pretty sure. Vándorló nácivadász no. 2, only you are doing this all on your own (the Axeman-hebrew-japanese-chinese). Whatever any of your targets have written, I doubt that any of them (us) have hidden behind different nicks to attack another poster, or try to start even tried to get any poster angered at the other, as I am sure you know, having traced each and every IP address. You must spend an incredible amount of time on this. What did you do to László? Starting writing into his BBC forums under various names and bashing him? And that is such a communist tactic by the way. Unfortunately often successful. And this after you wrote pages and pages on your blog (yes I clicked on it, to see who psycho cyber attacker was, got bored after the first page) complaining about how Balogh Éva filtered you out of her blog. Incredible. You are no better, your tactics are just as dishonest as hers. But if that weren't enough, my first,cordial attempts at comparing MSZP-FIDESZ cyclical budgets were met with truly nasty remarks, as opposed to actually countering any of them, and (this is before you took me to be Dr. Mengele). Varangy can be nasty as well, but he doesn't simply attack, he has a brain, and he uses it to think for himself. 2. I find your superior attitude pathetic, as well as unfair, like UJ, the refusal to tell us where you are from (and yes, it does make a difference), although I see now you have no “home”. I knew that by revealing information that I was putting myself at risk, but unlike you and many others, I think it particularly dishonest to debate people without giving some information about where you are coming from. To abuse this information says more about your warped mind than about us. 3. Pathetic also is the constant goading of people to debate you, which even UJ didn't do, and when they refuse because of your style, you take this to mean that is because you are right, and they (we) have nothing to say. So then you said you would piss off and go to Hungarian fora. Only none of them would have you. 3. And finally I agree with what anon wrote: “Getting to the point of doing IP searches on people I think is just kind of creepy and unnecessary. Who cares who another poster is? Furthermore, as I wrote before, the ad hominem attacks and accusations/assumptions of multiple posters being the same person are really just pointless and take up space that could be used for something far more interesting.”

Vándorló cont. And they are also dishonest. I am not “hurt” or having a “hissy fit” as you say (goading), by not debating you but there are certain unwritten rules here, and you have broken several. (Not to mention a huge waste of time already. When the forint first fell, I did start to reply to your neoliberal (sorry, the shoe fits) analysis of why a weak Hungarian forint was also good, (helps outsourcers!, tourism, exports) but then I thought, why bother.)

So as far as I go, there is no debating someone who uses these kind of tactics.

As far as your “exposing me” or continuing to do so, as a way to attack me, we lived with 50 years of tactics like that, so go ahead. Some things don't change.

Ui. “Copy” vagyis magyarul értendő, mint másolni: változtatás nélkül utánoz valakit, valamit, pl.> Nem alkot, csak másol.

Vándorló: P.S. I actually deleted a line from the above which would have be "your sources are all too much Economics Intelligent Unit, i.e. Adam LeBor", because you blasted me for saying all you UK posters must be weaned on the Economist. So, good job! You just cited LeBor on Varangy!

@Tunde - I am not Vandorlo! I have my own brain, albeit perhaps slightly Brain Damaged.

@Tünde: That is what I call a hissy fit. I've already said elsewhere where I am from (think it may have been here). It's the UK. Hope that helps you to shove me in to another one of your tiny mental boxes. Don't know what you are talking about with Laszló and the BBC thing, but obviously you follow his every word. It is a strange piece of synchronicity that today, for the first time in 3 months I looked in on LeBor's pages - don't expect you to believe anything I say/write, but there it is. Yes, I have an index and database of lots of stuff - I mess about creating search engines, so the stuff I am interested becomes the trial material - no apologies. I makes me better informed about what is going on. Computers and programs are great things. Also my background is originally cognitive psychology, so I profile people by habit - no apologies.
'Copy' with the import you wanted to convey would have been clearer had you used imitate, mimic... - thanks for the clarification, but my response to that is still germane. Also, where would you class the adaptive and highly optimised form of learning epitomised by vicarious learning from linguistic sources. Is this still copying?
As to your response on Varangy: "Vándorló: I won't bring down Varangy's site with a reply to you again. I did that on Pesticide. But I will say that saying that one can't reference a Hungarian source on this because well, Hungarians are all irrational racists, is a non-starter for any debate." (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=23465395&postID=6284619809636273219 )
I made it clear my reason for doubting discussions by Hungarian 'academics' was that their linguistic/social understanding and use of terms like multi-ethnic, multiculturalism etc... was markedly different and is locked up in the language. I have discussed this elsewhere, too.
If you wind your neck in and get on with the debate as you *demanded* it then we can at least discover what the basis of the discussion is.
So far I have called you a racist (following classic principles i.e. you believe in a genetic difference).
OK, well I won't expect much in the way of progress. Though I find it annoying that a communist sympathiser like you (your economics are just National Bolshevist redressed) lecturing me on past party tactics.
I'm waiting for the next wave of pre-potted anti-western, UK, hysteric expat nonsense from you. But go ahead and surprise me. Just start by answering for the issues you raised and I questioned.

@Tünde: Do you not think it a bit strong to claim I am citing Lebor ("You just cited LeBor on Varangy!") when this was a mildly humour aside referring to a work of (upcoming) fiction?

"OK, while Tünde is still mulling things over, thought you'd all be interested in some upcoming light reading: 'The Budapest Protocol' due in May from resident journalist Adam LeBor:
'As the European Union launches the election campaign for the first President of Europe, Miklos Farkas is brutally murdered. His journalist grandson Alex buries his grief to track down the killers. He soon unravels a chilling conspiracy rooted in the dying days of the Third Reich, one that will ensure Nazi economic domination of Europe - and a plan for a new Gypsy Holocaust.'"

Also, do you remember the good old days when you fondly called me a psychopath before? Oh no, that's right you didn't actually say it to me but in an aside in Hungarian ('pszichopata személyiség') to someone else, the Visító, I think. Anyway, thought this was interesting reading:
http://zona.hu/article/2036/rengeteg-a-pszichopata-a-felso-cegvezetok-kozott.html

Apologies in advance if this is another one of your sources that you aren't meant to reference or read. Me, I read them all (HírTV, MOL, Naranca, Magyar nemzet...) It's wanton, I know.

Free Speech
There are some misconceptions about free speech floating around here. First of all, free speech is not the same as free press, even though both are protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution. This constitutional protection is primarily from government intervention (Congress shall make no law...") and it is the primary source of these freedoms worldwide.
To my knowledge no comment was censored/deleted off these pages so far, despite some threats.
If you patronize a saloon you are generally allowed to voice your opinions by the owner and the other customers. However, if you keep sprinkling your comments with 'Your mother is a whore', 'dirty Jew', 'fucking spick' and the like you will have your teeth knocked out sooner or later. Your rights to free speech do not apply and will not protect you from the offended parties.

Друг Јосип: "militant zionist[s]… The Garda in Hungary" Isn't it a tad DECEPTIVE to compare the Zionists' (a. k. a. Neocons, AIPAC, ZOG, etc.) political and financial power (6 billion Euros from the US, almost as much from Europe, the Shoa Business, untold billions from miscellaneous "Jewish" organizations and people like Bill Gates, the Rotschilds, 'British Lords,' the Madoffs, etc.: TRILLIONS of Euros of income EVERY YEAR) to Magyar Gárda's that doesn't have a collective pot to piss in? Who do you think you are kidding?
@Stan: "I'm really tired of having to repeat this over and over" You can repeat it until you turn blue. They will just ignore what you say like they ignore my questions about Morvai or Shlomo Morel. That's how True Believers operate. I mean not even true believers. No one else does this or have you ever heard an Italian say that you're a hate monger,'anti' and such and such because you dared to mention the Camorra or the Mafia?
@Gargoyle: "Sounds like Obama's speech at AIPAC" KOWTOW would be more accurate.. And he kissed their asses as they were indicted under the Espionage Act for improperly receiving and transmitting national defense information to Israel and China :-)) "Hungarians don't have a word for Whiskey either," (Sigh.) You are projecting again! Whiskey is your shit. And so is colonization, slavery, racism, etc. It's LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG list. YOU did it not us. Don't try to make US pay for it. Carry your own guilt. We're not your dumping ground. "I call anyone racist who makes sweeping generalisations about a race of people that are based primarily on the fact that are of a different race" At the same time there are no races, yes? Or at least you ("people":)try to convince there are no races. &, how do you feel about Arabs, Muslims in general or Palestinians in particular (half of whom are not even Muslim) again? How about your little comment about the joy of killing them on another discussion board? You are such a HYPOCRITE, Double Standard Bearer.
@Gulliver /"Racist in Hungarian is fajgyűlölő...' You and Stan should read up on the subject a bit." Taníts egy kicsit magyarul, légyszíves… Először is fajgyűlölő race hater-t jelent, ami korántsem ugyanaz. Arról nem is szólva, hogy milyen *újkeletű* ez a szó, bár a rasszizmus /rasszista még újkeletűbb. Még a hajmeresztően giccses tv sorozat apropóján kiötlött "hollókoszt" nyaktekerészeti mellfekvencnél is újkeletűbb. ( Vigyázz, nem újkelet_ibb_! Vagy mégis? :)

@Visitor

"Sounds like Obama's speech at AIPAC" KOWTOW would be more accurate.. And he kissed their asses as they were.. indicted under the Espionage Act for improperly receiving and transmitting national defense information to Israel and China :-))

Yep, looked like a major ass-kiss to me too, and for the reasons I mentioned in a previous post. I think that the disproportionate power of the jewish lobby in the US is something that needs to be addressed, I think it dangerous and worrying that any interest group can influence a superpower to this degree. Still don't hate all jews though - haven't met them all for a start!

"Hungarians don't have a word for Whiskey either," (Sigh.) You are projecting again! Whiskey is your shit. And so is colonization, slavery, racism, etc. It's LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG list. YOU did it not us. Don't try to make US pay for it. Carry your own guilt. We're not your dumping ground."

Your a smart guy Visitor, so I know your misinterpretation here is intentional. Point being that, whether or not you like it, racism exists here whether or not you have a word for it, do think not makes no sense.Portraying the Hungarians as a race of innocent natives til the big bad white man came along is below you.

"I call anyone racist who makes sweeping generalisations about a race of people that are based primarily on the fact that are of a different race" At the same time there are no races, yes? Or at least you ("people":)try to convince there are no races.

No idea what you are on,, but I want some! I have never denied that there are different races, beliefs, cultures etc. I think that in a modern society that these are all welcome to keep their beliefs in tact. My only condition is that it be within the legal framework of the host country and once the individual's culture is in conflict with the law of his host country, the contract ends and the society take priority.

&, how do you feel about Arabs, Muslims in general or Palestinians in particular (half of whom are not even Muslim) again? How about your little comment about the joy of killing them on another discussion board? You are such a HYPOCRITE, Double Standard Bearer.

I have NEVER made a comment about killing anyone, you really must keep your paranoia in check, I ONLY post as Gargoyle and not anything else! I have many arab friends, including Iraqis, Iranians and Palestinians. None of them sound like Ishmail or believe violence solves anything.

G

@Visitor - KKK & Garda racial policies are, in many ways, similar to the Zionists, even if their resources aren't.

Gargoyle - Commendable that you were even able to make some sense of that rambling. Even now my head still hurts and I could take away from it was...Jews have too much power and Hungarian are 'babes in the wood' for not having colonization, slavery, racism (LOL). Of course Hungary didn't have the first two, Austria wouldn't let you (ZING).

@anon600ad /"Hungary is a small country and so corruption affects it a hell of a lot more than somewhere like the UK or US" Corruption is also how our politicians are paid by their 'employers…' "I also think it’s hypocritical for wealthy countries to complain about others’ use of tariffs etc when trying to gain access to a market, but then subsidise their own unprofitable industries to kill competition… " "pre-1990 debt should be forgiven" I agree. Ideally we should re nationalize everything that was privatized, freeze private borrowing and spending while the government should do the opposite and spend, spend, spend,on highways, bridges and other infrastructure, even if it has to run up deficits and borrow :-( Any new debt we incur should carry a ten year moratorium on repayment :)"The problem is, you can’t exactly put an entire country’s economy on ‘bypass’ while you do a heart and lung transplant, " Why not? Japan did it in its "lost decade."
@Gargoyle /"I have NEVER made a comment about killing anyone," I confused you with Gulliver for a sec. I apologize.
@Vándorló /"The Budapest Protocol" Ah Jeez, "vibrant" בודאפעשט again. How obnoxious! The Protocol though sounds a lot like Berkesi's Sellő a pecsétgyűrűn. Berkesi in case you don't know, was a Soviet Military Intelligence (kat. pol.) interrogator in his day job. He liked to kill prisoners by driving masonry nails into their temples. A real Artiste...
@UJ /"KKK & Garda racial policies are, in many ways, similar to the Zionists, even if their resources aren't" So whom should we worry about? (When the KKK doesn't even exist any more.)

@Visitor: "Sellő a pecsétgyűrűn" sounds like it's worth looking out for. How about the film/s made on it, worth watching? (http://www.filmtortenet.hu/object.424e93a0-74c9-49d8-8618-bee35ee0c7c1.ivy )

Hi guys !!
Still here,observing.
Guess what ! The boots on the other foot now !
Peace to all Normal commentators.

Ricsi ==== happy birthday
it is hard to learn new tricks for a 47 year old dog we know - but you must old fart
you are NEXT
never again
never forget
how is the delvideki situation????

Nácivadász!
Ricsi is not the next! Joe is!!!!
Bajtársak!
If it is ok to expose the identity of a true patriot because he is against zionism it must be also ok to expose traitors. Right Erik?????
Meet Joseph Szalai aki egy magyar-ellenes, nemzet-ellenes, természet-ellenes hazaáruló
Library Clerk, Porter Circulation Services
University of Waterloo Library
200 University Avenue West
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3G1
Thanks for the tip mate YKW
Kitartás!!!
Szebb Jövőt!!!
We also have friends all over the world
You people have no idea what you are up against
a

Like I said ,the boots on the other foot !
Köcsis are you listening ?
Peace and goodwill.....
szebb jövőtt

Ricsi,
Szili Katalin is running for mayor of her home town, Pecs. She want to weather the coming Orban years there and she is very likely to win.
Guess where she went to school...
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szili_Katalin
I could put in a good word for you, unless, of course, Nacivadasz gets you first, in which case it's pointless.

Godwin's law here too. What is it with these guys?

@Betrand: "...here too"?
(∃x∈S:φ(x))→(∀x∈S:φ(x))

Betrand,
Yes, Goodwin's law is here too. So what?
There are many reasons for that, and if you bother to read through the threads before commenting you may find some of them.

@Vándorló /"How about the film...?" I would rather take a tack in the temple from the Master himself than watch that crap. There is trash and then there is trash with an AGENDA. Süskind's Das Parfum or Chelsea Cain's stuff e. g. is just nasty, pornographic trash. Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code or Berkesi's oeuvre on the other hand has a 'message' swimming in its vile sewage as well. And then there is the type of person that buys or at least enjoys this kind of stuff.

Vándorló: Yes as I wrote before I assumed you were from the UK. It is obvious. I did not demand a debate on Varangy, certainly not on my post. I challanged the “hate speech” people to actually debate the two posts I mentioned, but of course they didn't. Easier to call Stan a nazi.
Zona link, no thanks, the psychopath as company director thing was covered in the film The Corporation, at least 5 years ago. I hope you read it though, because it relates directly to global capitalism. (És magyarul elég a “pszichopata”, mint főnév, nem kell hozzá “személyiség”. That could mean you might actually have one.)

LeBor: A Nazi conspiracy plot thriller. How original. How LeBor: “másol, nem alkot”. And don't tell me, his conspiracy plot to kill off all the gypsies was developed not by the Nazis, but by the Hungarians.

I am not in the habit of having hissy fits. From what I have read so far your sources are: Bokros, Soros, Kéri László, Népszabadság and Mihályi Péter. With the exception of Soros, not even Chicago School first liners. And your anaylsis of the benefits of the weak national currency: tourism, cheap exports, good for outsourcing are all classic, and wrongheaded, neoliberal policy so forgive me if I classify you as a neoliberal.

For the record, so I don't get a bunch of useless posts on how racist I am, I do not think that people are totally genetically determined, and I did not say anything of the sort. I do think that generations of behavior may create negative or positive heritary traits, which then, it would go to say, could be changed again. „Evolutionary changes in the genome could help explain cultural traits that last over many generations as societies adapted to different local pressures.” http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/12/news/genes.php.

So when they say globalised capitalism is creating generations of sociopaths and pyschopaths, and this is causing the collapse of society in general, I tend to agree.

@Tunde - What a dishonest inference, Tunde. Are your racist and xenophobic genes inherited?

@Tünde: Well from hissy fit (thanks for the apology about the many wrongful and laughable accusations you made) to your standard unhealthy mixture of the illusion of asymmetric insight/superiority with outgroup homogeneity bias, coupled with the Dunning-Kruger and false consensus effects. And as with the current collective psychosis, an unbalanced level of external attribution for your life's course and that of Hungarians' in general - with your usual exclusions as to who should count as Hungarian.

Yes I read the reference I sent you - were you kidding or just more arrogant and conceited than I could possibly imagine? The psychopath thing is retarded. Particularly as you have no other knowledge to contribute on this. Best to stick to the communist economics you prefer.

Like I said on Varangy I have just been reading and checking my facts from the ground up. This includes the following:
1. The Measure of Merit: Talents, Intelligence, and Inequality in the French and American Republics, 1750-1940 by John Carson
2. Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Richard J. Herrnstein, Charles Murray
3. The Bell Curve Debate: History, Documents, Opinions by Russell Jacoby, et al.
4. Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth by Claude S. Fischer, et al.
5. Az Európai Népek Eredete by Kalevi Wiik

I am almost happy now that I have a updated understanding of the genetics, race, culture interplay and will take the trouble to tie all your arguments together to show you how misguided and ignorant you are. How ignorant are you? This ignorant 'I do think that generations of behavior may create negative or positive heritary traits, which then, it would go to say, could be changed again. „Evolutionary changes in the genome could help explain cultural traits that last over many generations as societies adapted to different local pressures.” http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/12/news/genes.php.' In a loose sense you are right, but in the way you use this to support your beliefs you are wrong.

I don't care who you were calling to argue over at Varangy or your constant ignoring of my questions. You have directly or indirectly wasted too much of my time and I have taken the trouble to do what I always do which is to assume I am wrong, completely wrong and start by convincing myself based on facts. I didn't have those facts, now I do. Whether here, Varangy's place or (god forbid) my blog I will reply to all your arguments. All of them.

@Tünde: "I assumed you were from the UK. It is obvious." Really. Tell me how. I can tell linguistically and by my deliberate cultural references. How can you tell?