It's Official: Hungarians Sort of Love Sort-of Black People!

Well i can say that the above is true, because i had an ex gf, who said that when she told her parents that i was black, they asked "How black", and when she said 100%, they said "No", and they added that "it would have been acceptable if i was at least half-black". So in Hungary, some of them like to sympatise with the "white side" of a half caste (aka Cappucino).....
About the elections,we just have to wait and see. But no matter the outcome, people are never going to "look beyond the skin color"...the only difference is that when u have a conversation about race with an american, he/she will use as a defence that "hey we elected a (half)black person into office". This would be the same way of reasoning as saying that "i am not racist because i have 4 black friends" .
As far as there are different races,Rasicm is always going to exist.

Excellent observation from 100% Black man...my fingers are crossed for Obama. He's the only one who can bring the USA out of its mess.

This promises to be another 200 comment thread.:P Growing up in Hungary I was 12 when I first saw a black person up close - in France, she was my roommate for two weeks and I had an overwhelming desire to lick her. I suppose today that would be considered racist too. So I'm very naive at this, but isn't saying someone is only half-back, i.e. not black enough just as bad? I recently read on the imdb board of 'The Secret Life of Bees', a movie that has a mostly black AND female cast, that people were complaining about the actresses not being black enough. I think that attitude is really demeaning towards the women in question, if you want to promote a post-racial point-of-view, shouldn't their performance be the only thing that matters? Like in 'Much Ado about Nothing' where Denzel Washington played the role of a 16th century Italian prince, *regardless* of his ethnicity, because he was the right actor for the part. Or Cate Blanchett playing Bob Dylan for that matter. What would be truly utopian, if Barack Obama would win the election not *because of* or *despite* his gender or colour, but because he is the right person for the job. Or because his name means 'peach' in Hungarian and I think President Peach is super cute. Everybody looks the same anyway, up here from my happy cloud.

Sure, Hungarians sort of like black people. As long as they don't live in Hungary. But seriously, Obama? No question about it. It's in the interest of Hungarians and every country on this planet to have a U.S president as least nationalistic as possible. That's why the U.S. and all countries in Europe have always rooted for the Socialists/Free Dems in the first place. Halley Berry? Are you kidding me? Who would love those cans, tushie, exotic and innocent girlie face. Even women do coz they all wanna be like her. And Hamilton? Who gives a shit about formula one? Maybe 10% of Hungary's male population and lost U.S. expats like you, Erik. ;)

"Sen. Barack Obama (far left)"

You said it bro...he's far left all right...

100%,

thanks for an interesting post, and it gives me an opportunity to air my racial prejudices and crackpot racial theories. Here goes:

I think I learnt to overcome my inherent racism - and I think humans are inherently racist - at school. I went to an English boarding school with real Africans, Ibo, Hausa and Yoruba from Nigeria, and a large family of brothers from Rwanda (interestly I never learned whether they were Tutsi or Hutu - no other Rwandans to dis them I suppose). Deli Oshinowo may have bullied me, Kwasi Hayfron-Benjamin may have terrifed me but this was because they were mean MFs not becuse they were black. Toyin Banjoko may have looked and danced like a refugee from the Jackson Five, but his real brother Kunle spent his entire education curled up in an armchair with a book, and Mausibau 'Chicken George' Benson was probably the most aggressive and intuitive chess player I will ever see, although he had no tolerance for alcohol. But the point I want to make it that these boys were black, I mean dark chocolate 99% cocoa solids.

Now take a look at the 'blacks' above, Obama looks like a Hausa who are proud of their mixed Arab descent. Halle Berry looks southern European. And Hamilton looks more Thai than Tongan. In anglo-saxon societies it seems that anything not-entirely white is black. In Hungary - and I know many Hungarians who are darker than Halle Berry - it is different. Hence the girlfriend's parents concern not with blackness per se but the degree of blackness.

The counter-intuitive thing is that this has had a negative effect on the socio-economic development of gypsies in Hungary. Cos despite the assertions of nearly all Hungarians I know otherwise, there really is no phenotypical difference bewteen a dark complexion 'white' Hungarian and the average gypsy. This enables the brightest and best gypsies to assimilate not just into 'white' society but into a 'white' identity as well. They succeed as Hungarians but they fail as gypsies. Barack Obama never had that option, he fails or succeeds as a black man, (and I wish him and USA the best of luck in what is going to be a difficult situation either way). If the same constraint applied to gypsies, gypsy success would be more apparent, as would the cost to Hungarian society caused by anti-gypsy pejudice.

Obama's a neocon wolf in a liberal black sheep's clothing. I am
taking bets on how soon Iran will be attacked. Three months?
Maybe 6? As for Gypsies, Adrian is right, most Gypsies aren't even
recognized as such by their fellow Hungarians. The problem with
*some* Gypsies is not that they are Gypsies, just like the problem
with Irish travellers is not that they are Irish.

Adrian, I see your point, but separating 'gypsies' and 'Hungarians' is a problem for me. To me being Hungarian was always a citizenship question, and ethnicity never entered my mind. I always found it weird how English speakers would say that 'Hungarians are made up of Magyars, Romas, Romanians, etc.' I considered Hungarian as a direct translation of magyar, which is a citizen of Magyarorszag, that is Hungary. Who would these ethnic magyars be, when we have been so mixed with Germans, Slavs, Truks, Jews and whoever invaded us or travelled through the country in the bloody middle?! Maybe a dozen people in Transylvania, and man, I love the way they talk, it's beautiful...but I digress. Gypsies might not be white, but they are Hungarians, and it is the right-wing idiots who propagate the 'magyar vs cigany' discourse that are dangerous. We don't have this distinction in the language that Britain has for example, where you can be British _and_ Welsh. If you have the passport, especially if you were born here, you are magyar, no matter if your surname is Budahazy or Huang.

fayefaye,at last someone who speaks common sense, you took the words out of my mouth.

duh: You are right about the predictability of countries "rooting" for the non-nationalist side in other countries. (Jobbik supporting Russia is just the exception that proves the rule, as they are kitten-kicking psychopaths.) But you are wrong about F1: lots of Hungarians are keen, or at least the local media think they are; whenever some minor forma story springs up, it's always on pg1 of index and origo and so on. Meanwhile, I'm the only American I know who gives a shit, and even I find it hard to understand why I do, because it's usually so dead fucking boring, and would probably take up NASCAR if it was on RTL Klub every Sunday.

Visitor,

You agree with something I say, I'll have to get back to the anti-semitism thread. But I agree with you, almost. Today, my students were asking me whether Peaches' election means the end of the war in Iraq. I could only say that saying it is one thing, doing it another. In office he'll have to confront the foreign policy realities of America's allies - the Turks, the Saudis and the Isrealis - and its Iranian enemy, which has never been as geopolitically powerful as it is now. Now here's the twist: would any policy change on Obama's part over this make him a liar - Gyurcsány style?

Faye-Faye,

"but separating 'gypsies' and 'Hungarians' is a problem for me"

For me too - it hurts me when I hear my children do it - but all this agreeing is never going to get this thread running. How about...

'Gypsy' is not - or shouldn't be - a racial concept at all. It should be a socio-economic one. Like 'underclass' is in the UK - previously known as 'undeserving poor'. When people fall in to a lifestyle of welfare dependancy and petty crime in Hungary they become "gypsies", just like the travelling Irish did during the potato blight.

On the other hand, part of the causes of the gypsy problem in Hungary seem to have started with the Communist policy of settling travelling Roma. My wife's family has good anecdotes of gypsies ripping up parquet floors and burning them in the bath to heat their new flats. Certainly we have had Roma in the UK for a long time, and have the benefits system in place to support professional 'breeding', but have not had an explosion in the Roma population, why is this? Perhaps related to this is the observation that Gypsies seem to have all of the problems of the underclass, accept singlemotherhood - does anybody know about this?

@FayeFaye. Once again you're a shining light of Hungarian sanity on this site. It's nice to read a Hungarian posting sane comments about race, colour and nationality (have you seen the venom on politics.hu recently?!). On the whole licking your room-mate thing, I'd say you were just curious and naive at the time. Anyone who would call that racist is a plonker.
I also agree having Pres.Peach is a very cute thing for Hungarian speakers. We should be able to get a few laughs out of that for a couple of years :) And it's not even offensive, just kinda cute and friendly.

Been looking at some of the photos and reading some of the quotes from around the US of celebrations of Obama's victory. What struck me most was the tears of happiness and the joy that many people of darker (black, brown, mocha, cappucino, deep-olive, whatever you wanna call it) skin colour were obviously feeling in these pictures and the accompanying quotes. It seems that for many middle-class black Americans it is vindication of their arrival into American society and that all the things they stand for are possible. This is important for dealing with many of the issues concerning the status of poor black Americans, mainly feelings that society/the system is predominantly set against you. This has taken over 400 years for the USA to acheive, the recognition that a former 'underclass', i.e African slaves and their descendants, can acheive the impossible by being elected as President.

So how long will take Hungary to get over the whole bleeding Roma/gypsy thing???!!! They've been here for over 600 years, with a small Roma/gypsy middle-class and the problems of poverty endemic amongst the rest of the population. I hear racism and intolerance on the street against non-white Europeans and Jews almost everyday even in Budapest (one drawback of listening to and reading Hungarian, in media and 'on-the-street/job', so be careful all you learners out there). And that's not even including some of the posters on these sites. I know that many Hungarians do have negative issues (not just out of naivety or a lack of knowledge) about race/colour, especially outside of BP. And this is despite the fact that nearly everyone (in the whole world, not just Hungary) is a little mixed, bit of this, bit of that. Just wish more could be curious and open minded, not just ignorant and close-minded about immigration, foreigners, people with different skin colours.

And that goes for the whole world!

A poll carried out yesterday showed that over 75% of people in the US said they didn't factor-in either race or age when they voted. Could they finally be getting it's not about the sex, colour or age, just who's a better leader? Stan, I await your New York based reply :)

Last thing. Many Ethiopians regard themselves as white. To them 'whitey' is pink/red. All other people are either brown or black in their eyes. They can be deeply offended if they are called 'black'. So sometimes it just depends on how you see yourself, not how others see you.

I should have licked her, could have crossed off mixed-race and same-sex experimentation at the same time...but a Hungarian shining light of sanity? I'm all warm and fuzzy.(=^.^=) Although I think my record is tainted by my parents exiling me good and early to an English school where I met (but sadly never tasted) kids of all sorts of colours. Adrian D., in the spirit of disagreement, I don't think it's true that Gipsy is not an ethnicity but a social class; that the majority of the ethnic group occupies the lowest social stratum is a sad fact that indeed has socio-economic implications. Forced settlement didn't help, but it is necessary, especially in such a small country; where exactly would they be travelling to? The rural agriculture that supported a migrant lifestyle of seasonal work and odd jobs has all but disappeared. The trouble is, that nothing happened after that to try and integrate them into mainstream society. A Guardian reader might say that that would mean a loss of their cultural heritage, but I think we are still light-years away to worry about whether the Western-style vibrant multi-cultural society is really viable until politicians won't even talk about the problem. Not that they talk about anything, they just throw hissy fits and walk out on each other. I'm afraid the shift in people's attitude needed to move Hungary out of the middle-ages is too radical to occur in my lifetime. I think the British equivalent you were looking for would at the moment be chavs, which is very neatly a word derived from the Romani 'chavi', which also gave us the Hungarian 'csávó'.

On President Peach (or should it be Apricot?), we should send him a case of Fütyülős Barack pálinka to congratulate him, that would scramble his Harvard chiseled brain.(^_^)

Ah, I see this debate had already played out with all the arguments (including mine) on politics.hu, which I don't usually read, it's too depressing. It's President Peaches then, and apricot palinka...I just had a little one, and I already feel more common; it ought to help break Peaches' elitist image! Demagogue, are you really gonna go for that drink with Ricsi? Brave man! Do you guys ever get together for expaty drinks like other blog communities, or would that end in all-out war?

So as all of you know, the elections went the way of the Democrats.Oh who am i kidding,the Black guy won!!
Its so funny that life is so subjective.While some people voted for him bcos of his policies, others voted for him because of his skin color.
The ironic thing is that he is as much white, as he is black(50/50),but everyone keeps banging on that he is black.If you look at his biography,you will find out that there was a point in his life where he was contemplating which "side" to be on (black or white), i guess society made that decision for him.In Hungary, half black kids like to identify themselves as "White", while Hungarians see them as "black".I feel sad for them,they are very confused about their identity.This is why i came to the conclusion that there is only one sure thing that i can promise my unborn child: I wont put him/her in this situation, where he/she will question their identity(in otherwords i aint gonna have a kid by a white woman).
Identity,Identity, people think that this is just a phase that teenagers go through. But what they dont realise that it occurs throughout your life time.Everyone likes to identify themselves with certain things :White,Black,Christian,Elite,"Average joe", "Hockey mom", Western or Eastern european,Igazi magyars,gypsies,left wing,right wing,democrat,republican...etc
@FayeFaye thanks for letting me know where the word "chav""csávó""chavi" came from.
Also FayeFaye, you said that you were 12 when you first saw a black person and you wanted to "lick" her.Now some people can see this as racism,while others can look at this sexually(nice girl-on-girl action). @Adrian D, i am trully impressed that you still remember the full names of your classmates from school,espercially Mausibau 'Chicken George' Benson. Now i am wondering how he got that middle name.hmm?I am assuming that he liked chicken alot?Some will say he got the name bcos of his character,others would say that this is a typical case of stereotyping(subjective).The Nigerians who bullied u, some say racism,some say that they were bad mofos(subjective).And then this "President Peaches", some say cute, some say Gay(subjective).Women like me bcos of my "tool",men hate me bcos they feel i will 'steal' their women(Subjective).People like me bcos i am black,people hate me bcos i am black(subjective)
To conclude,we all have brains,we can all come to whatever conclusion we would like.Some people will call me racist,others will say i am "keeping it real"(Subjective)

following this one with interest!
on relative blackness: on visiting the UK after the fall of communism, one of my Beregszasz based relatives, named Barna for the darknes of his skintone from birth, took a look at fellow passengers on the London underground and remarked "there are a lot of blacks", I was too gobsmacked to reply ...but, of course, this was just the first of many conversations (well, one-sided rants) I've now listened to on blacks, Jews and Roma. Interestingly, my trans-Carpathian relatives have themselves been called "gypsies" (to their disgust), for coming into Hungary to try and improve their economic situation, and I think that precisely locates what czigany really means: someone who's fallen out of the economic base and is regarded as a scrounger or as taking something they're not entitled to (what are any of us entitled to?) Obama, as number one man in the world, has no colour but I pity him in the coming months as everyone who has staked their faith in him is equally disappointed. Remember Margaret Thatcher who did nothing for women's issues. One last thing: in my local area in sunny Hertfordshire you can't change a tyre safely on the side of the road because every layby has been bollarded; we may no longer say "gypsy" but talk of "travellers" but hell we don't want them in our neighbourhood
sorry this is such a mixed bag of responses

100%,

"Now I am wondering how he got that middle name."

Mausibau Benson's nick-name evolved: first to "George" after the Jazz guitarist George "Gimme the night" Benson, and then to "Chicken George" after a re-run of Alex Haley's "Roots". How could ever I forget anyone who puked over my feet while I was trying to persuade his housemaster that he wasn't drunk.

Best of luck with with blacks only breeding project, but as my grandmother said when voiced by preference for a Eurasian child (I was 14) "You'll marry the women you love and that's the end of it." I think we're heading to Starbucks coloured world.

anna_marya, I think that's a fairly normal response, until quite recently Hungary was isolated and very white, and then it's surprising to be suddenly surrounded by people of so many colours, it's a strange experience being the minority in the room.:) It's normal to ride a bus in Camden and hear at least three different languages, but I'm still surprised to see black faces in Bp. The difference is of course how you respond to it, whether you think it's fresh and brilliant, or if you think it spells the doom of western civilisation. Tolerence is something that has to be learnt through exposure, just as much as you, who were probably surrounded by children from various races from kindergarten, have to understand this weird concept that we weren't. I would like to say that for the generation growing up now this won't be an issue, but with the education system being what it is and the Hungarian Guard now recruiting children too, sadly, it doesn't seem like things are moving in the right direction at all.

A Starbucks coloured world...green?:D

This reminds me of my favorite website ever: http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com

Adrian,
thanks for the link, I liked the site too: especially the your letters page: http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/letters.html
Any chance of setting up a gypsiesloveus site? I would like to upload pictures of me bravely defying the magyar garda, linked arm in arm with my csávó brothers.

Adrian D: "My wife's family has good anecdotes of gypsies ripping up parquet floors and burning them in the bath to heat their new flats"

I heard the same stories in my hometown in Sweden about the Finnish immigrants in the 60-ies.

Then it was the same thing about the Assyrians in the 70-es.

Funny that the 'lowerclass' always must burn up their parquet floors.

Hold on a second, Adrian, I think I may have missed your point--you want the term "gypsy" to be synonymous with "underclass" rather than "Romany"?? I must have misread and misunderstood, since that would create many more problems--I mean, where does it leave my very intelligent, educated, well-off professional musician friend who is half-Gypsy?? "Half-underclass"?
Romany IS an ethnic group, and they are NOT all the underclass, that's the point, I know a lot of them who've assimilated perfectly well.

@FayeFaye. For sure I'll go for that drink. I'm always up for a chinwag and a natter, even if we don't share the same views on life, the world and politicy stuff. And I am the head of a large semi-secret elite deathsquad of liberal ninja assasins so I'll be OK if anything kicks off. Which is highly unlikely I think. He's not all bad is young(ish) Ricsi.
I can also add a little more to your 'chav' etymology. 'Chav' came from a term they had used in Kent for several hundred years - 'chavin'. It originally was just used for travelling people, gypsies, buit later was extended to include just general underclass types. At some time in the 80's it was shortened to 'chav' and had pretty much the same meaning as 'pikey' does. During the 90's I heard it in London and it quickly spread across the country, mainly due to the media. The earlier 'chavin' form seems to show even more the connection to the Romany original. Interestingly Kent is one of the areas of the UK where historically gypsies were of Romany blood, unlike the north, Scotland, the SW and Midlands where most travellers were of Irish blood (the infamous 'pikey' so beloved of Guy Ritchie and his film Snatch.

@Viking. We don't have many parquet floors in the UK, but there was a story in my hometown's local newspaper a few years ago about an immigrant from Africa who, shock horror!, didn't know what washing-up liquid was for!! Can you imagine what an uncultured heathen she must have been. The newspaper didn't consider the fact that the women in question had been a tribal princess, in what was Zaire, and therefore, like the Queen, had people who did the washing-up for her. She didn't know about washing-up because she had never done it herself or seen it happening. Yet she was branded an ignorant immigrant who should be made to leave due to the fact that she hadn't assimilated enough. Despite speaking English, working as a volunteer and being a part of the local community. Typical shortsighted and bigoted rightwing (the paper makes no apologies for its political stance) ignorance.
Maybe we can start rumours of decadent Western immigrants burning parquet floors in baths in Hungary. That would confuse a few people.

Viking,

yeah, but did the Finns burn the parquet flooring in the bath???

Mariska,

My point was to stir up debate. If the gypsies are an ethnicity, what it makes them so? There was a recent Magyar Hirlap article in which a gypsy woman was asked if she was cigány or Roma, she said cigány because she didn't keep up the traditions, nor speak Romany. Presumably your musician friend does, please ask him what he thinks about this question.

100%,

Similarly, do you need more than pigmentation to be black?

Demagogue,

What about Council Housed And Violent?
I first learned about 'chavo' in Cumbria used exactly as in Hungary and recognised as a Romany word. Checkout 'charver' on this link: http://www.gonmad.co.uk/cumbria/#C

Parquet floors are rare in the UK, but I have heard more than once someone fussing in the proper news about Eastern European immigrants eating the geese and ducks from the Royal Parks or fishing where they're not supposed to.

The parquet stories are true, I'm one of many witnesses. I can also report on much stranger eating habits than stolen ducks. Outside of most Hungarian villages there are deep wells. These are not for drinking, peasants use them to dump dead animals in it. The animals usually die of some illness and not suited for human (or animal) consumption. Every week or so gypsies stop by and fish out some ripe (green) animal carcasses, cook 'em and feast on them. They don't need to do that, they could work like everyone else, but they prefer their "freedom" and choose not to join civilized society.
I could tell you about many of my personal encounters with the proud nation of gypsies, but it would not fit into a single post. I'm not getting my info from Nepszabadsag, I've been there, I've seen a lot of things rarely mentioned in mainstream media.
And for the last time, pay attention: I define gypsies by their lifestyle, behavior, attitude and not by birth certificate. If an ethnic gypsy is willing to assimilate, I'm not going to hold them back, and if a white Hungarian acts like a gypsy criminal, I want him to get the same treatment as the others. Being Hungarian is not about family trees, and not about waving flags.
It's a state of mind, a common language that's uniquely ours, and most of all it's about doing something good for your country you may never get
rewarded, you do it because you're Hungarian. As long as the majority of gypsies are not willing to join us, we just have to assume that they are against us, and deal with them the way they deserve it.
If they are not sharing any responsibilities maybe they should not share all the rights either.
Not that we have too many rights or freedom to begin with...

Stan,

"and if a white Hungarian acts like a gypsy criminal, I want him to get the same treatment as the others"

A very generous concession, Stan: but what happens if 'white' Hungarian acts like a 'white' Hungarian criminal? What is this "gypsy" crime that you are implying, how is it different to "white" crime?

Alternatively, how about the idea that justice should be blind to the colour of a mans skin.

Adrian "What is this "gypsy" crime that you are implying, how is it different to "white" crime?".

If you have to ask, then you obviosly don't know what's going on here in real life every day.
I don't support any kind of crime, and would be very happy to see all the white criminals who destroed this country to be tried and sentenced, but it's unlikely to happen.
We're talking about typical gypsy crime now. What is it? Many things.
It's the phenomenon of destroying healthy communities through constant harrassment, begging, stealing, intimidating and turning the neighborhood into a garbage dump.
Forcing decent folks to abandon their homes they are no longer able (or allowed) to protect.
The police are not much help, and any local efforts to organize some sort of defense are immediately labeled as "nazifascistracist".
So you can try to live following the outdated law that doesn't allow self defense, report crimes to the police and hope that you will recover from the beating, the police will find and return the stolen goods and lock up all the criminals. Well, that's just not good enough. When there are break-ins in the local store 40 times a month, it's safe to say that the law doesn't work.
When they arrest gypsies trying to smuggle stolen copper and bronze acreoss the border, only a few months after the same people were arrested for the same crime, then it's an indication of a justice that's not only blind but also stupid.
Gypsy style crime is beyond what traditional law and order can control, and we need some non-traditional ways to deal with it, or give up and drop dead.

Stan, "self defense" is not forbidden anywhere in European legislation. It is regulated rather exact - it exists a right for anyone to use enough violence to stop violence against one-self or 3rd party. This 'legal' violence must be administered in such away that the immidiate threat stops, not more. As a private individual you have no right to use more violence than that. The Police and similar entities are normally the only ones that have the legal right to use violence to get people to do things, like empty a square or street.

I assume the "self defense" you are speaking about is the more US-variant, where you have the right to kill people just for coming in to your garden. So you want to have a free shooting season on people you define as 'under-class', you describe them as 'Gypsies'.

Viking,
Ok, self defense is not completely illegal, but it's definitely impossible in most cases. Try getting a gun license in Hungary.
Even if you're a boxing champ and you're not outnumbered, how do you apply exactly the legal amount of violence? If you are attacked, the person who's trying to hurt you gives up all his rights - at least this should be the law - and as a violent outlaw, he deserves no protection from the law.
Defending your property is also self defense, if you allow criminals to take your stuff, how are you going to survive?
Right now there's very little danger involved in going to other people's property uninvited. Once we introduce the risk of being shot, breaking in might becomes less popular.

A Starbucks colored world. And you find that a good thing? This is such misguided liberal twaddle. 100% Black man: Obama may be (sort of) black but he is no progressive. Interesting article by former Black Panther Larry Pinkney on Obama: www.blackcommentator.com/297/297_kir_obama_presidency_pt1.html. Good for you, though, on your stand on having children. If I had written the same, I would have been slammed for being racist, as if that the desire to remain in one's own racial and ethnic community is necessarily a bad thing. I have heard three stories from Hungarian-African children, all three were stories of children deeply confused about their identity. Every race and nationality or ethnic group has its own characteristics, and culture. That is what makes the world so rich, and diverse. Overcrossbreeding is leading to an agricultural monoculture. Plants and animals,tastes and sounds are disappearing almost daily. We are losing our biodiversity, and that includes humans. Obviously some mixing does enrich cultures, to a point, and when the mixing is gradual and from like cultures. There are serious ethnic tensions in France, the UK, Holland, Germany. This is due to the intolerant resident population, I suppose. Please explain, FayeFaye, why being surrounded by other races is “good” in school and being surrounded by one's own race/people and one or two indigenous others is “bad”? I have seen 100% homogeneous schools in Tunisia and Turkey and it didn't occur to me to think “those poor pathetic racist people, they certainly need some ethnic Germans to mix them up.”Can one not be tolerant without having an immigrant population thrust upon them? In fact, that is probably the best way to bring about intolerance. By the way, has it never occurred to anyone the reasons for migration? Those going to the “West” are looking for better opportunities. Often the best and the brightest, they are the ones most needed in their own countries, such as Hungarian, or African doctors/nurses in the UK. Most people are becoming displaced due to wars or economic havoc being wrought on their own countries by others. Immigrants to “eastern” Europe these days are almost all economic migrants, who can't get to richer countries. And they are coming to a wrecked economy with high unemployment. No one is coming to Hungary to improve it, to provide sustainable employment or to contribute needed knowledge or skills,and that includes most expats.

Tunde,
Thank you for the excellent post (and the link to the must-read article). I fully agree with what you wrote. Similis simili gaudet, there's nothing wrong with the desire of living comfortably in a familiar environment. I don't want to be part of any misguided race-mixing experiment and social engineering project. It's too late for the USA, they are stuck with the "melting pot", but even there you can't help but notice the natural preference of most people to live with their own kind. Blacks prefer blacks, whites prefer whites.
Why is one racist and the other not?

@Tunde. I thought fairies were meant to be nice creatures in Hungarian stories. Tunde, you sound more like a boglin or red-cap to me. You are wrong about 'serious' racial tension in the UK. Can't comment on France, Holland and Germany. The tension in the UK is mainly directed at 'Eastern Europeans' not brown or black people. It was different in the past. If you look at the history of the rainy islands you'll see that we just don't like the latest wave of immigration, but once a community has been there for a while it gains the right to be as horrible to the later waves as everyone else. Quite amusing when you hear a second or third generation Sikh guy going on about the 'bloody immigrants from Eastern Europe coming here and stealing our jobs', 'don't contribute to society', 'don't speak proper English', 'eat all the ducks, geese and wild mushrooms', blah blah blah.
You stated that you can be tolerant of others without an immigrant population. Of that I'm sure, but if you never meet anybody from another group how do you if you really are tolerant or if it is just hot air?
I'm sure that many of the most recent wave of immigrants into Hungary are economic migrants. But they do enrich the country. They pay taxes like everyone, but the Hungarian government never had to pay for their early years care or their education, and because they cannot claim benefits the government doesn't have to pay for that either. It's all about how we use that resource. I know of several Hungarian owned businesses that have recruited numbers of (legal status) Africans (mainly Nigerians) because they enhance the English communication ability of the company, therefore the increasing the amount of business and profit, which goes to predominantly Hungarian shareholders. So some Hungarians seem to have learnt to profit from immigration.
Lastly, I don't really appreciate your comment regarding ex-pats doing nothing for Hungary, but I won't take it personally. We pay taxes, spend our money here and many of us do care about the direction in which Hungary is going and want to help and make a difference. Just look at these sites, we have Scandinavians, Ozzies, Brits and US citizens all debating (arguing more like) about Hungary and it's economic direction (shout out to Ricsi, Viking, Stan, hotpaprika, Adrian D and all the rest) and the future of Hungary. If us ex-pats didn't care about Hungary, we wouldn't be doing this. Instead we would be planning our escape routes.

Regarding the problems of mixed children in Hungary, that may be down the fact that you can't be Afro-Hungarian, or Arab-Hungarian, or Indo-Hungarian, just Hungarian. That's cool, but it doesn't help a child who may have identity issues. Also being the subject of racially based teasing, bullying and harassment (which I've happening first-hand in schools here, and not only from the kids but from teachers who should know better) probably doesn't help either. As you have some knowledge of the UK, or write like you do, then you will be aware that the fastest growing black ethnic group in the UK is black/white mixed. Mixing happens, and can work. It's all about the attitude of the society in which they live.

@Stan. Wait there, you've posted previously about how great a melting pot New York is. Now you say the melting pot sucks. Which one is it?

But you both have a point. Many people don't like different or unusual things, food, people, places, music and cultures. But some people do. If a community wishes to live in isolation and inbreed that fine by me. Just don't complain when all the kids start having three heads and no chins. Crossbreeding and mixing is integral to maintain a healthy genepool. I seriously don't think we will see a homogenous global human population, because some people will always stick to their own. Even if the majority of the world becomes 'coffee skinned, almond eyed, brown haired homogenes' (read Arthur C Clarkes Earthlight for a interesting scenario concerning such a future Earth) there will be still be people who aren't. Don't have such fear about it. Division and mixing happens. It's been happening ever since a handful of early humans starting expanding outwards from the Rift Valley. We are all different (something to be celebrated) and all the same (something to be remembered when celebrating the differences). We're all just humans at the end of the day.

Re: the Peachy President. For sure he's no progressive. Nor is he a Black Power advocate (despite Fox News trying their best to portray him as one). If people want to read more into his election then they can feel free. As I've pointed out, the majority of US voters claimed they didn't take account of race when they voted. But if black Americans want to read something personal into his election, then they should. When I voted for Labour in '97 I, like many people in the UK, was swept along on a wave of optimism for change. This is what happened in the US. Mistake probably...

Demagogue,
I didn't say I liked the melting pot, I just learned to live with it. If we have a choice in Europe, we should avoid it at all costs. Europeans mix with each-other well, but unleashing a wave of Asian and African immigrants would be a huge mistake. Countries in Europe have character, why would we grind it all up to get a tasteless burger? Don't let corporate greed, multinacional interest groups and some shady characters in the background force you into this mix. We don't need more people in Europe, time to put out the "no vacancy" sign. The need for constant population growth is a myth, don't believe it.
We need to make some changes in management and we'll be all right without having to adjust to a bunch of strangers.

Stan,

"It's the phenomenon of destroying healthy communities through constant harrassment, begging, stealing, intimidating and turning the neighborhood into a garbage dump."

I live in the town centre, 12 minutes walk away from where I teach. I take the route at least twice a day. There are three homeless beggers camping along this route. They beg continuously. They intimidate my children who are disgusted and frightened by them. They use the nearby bushes as a toilet, and the underpass as a wet weather camp/dump.

As far as I can tell they are all 'white'. 'Joszi bácsi' was missing for a few months last winter - he had been arrested in the Kossuth ter demonstrations - which confirmed the rumours that the demonstration organisers werer paying down-and-outs to demonstrate.

"trying to smuggle stolen copper and bronze acreoss the border"

Since the recent increase in world metal prices, there has been a massive increase in metal theft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhole_cover_theft
Are gypsies uniquely responsible for this, from the States to China?

Crime is crime, Stan, the police and the Law maybe ineffective, but that is a different argument.

You're back, Tunde, and still having problems with the is/ought distinction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

No, I didn't write whether "A Starbucks colored world" is a good thing or not. I just think given the enabling technology and prevailing economic/political systems racial integration we will continue. We are all out of Africa anyway, maybe interplaentary travel will enable racial differences to reestablish themselves.

Similarly, I don't think FayeFaye wrote that " being surrounded by other races is “good” in school and being surrounded by one's own race/people and one or two indigenous others is “bad”?

Since I seem to have a similar education to Faye-faye, I'll butt in here as well. My school actually had a race quota, 5% African. 5% Asian; though they weren't evenly distributed across the school. I wasn't surrounded; about 20-30% of the boys in my house were non-white. For me, living with people from different races was a positive experience, in that I got a broad exposure to that diversity you are praising - but that only seems very superficial. As my first post tried to illustrate. There was more individual diversity between boys of the same race than there was uniformity.

"I have heard three stories from Hungarian-African children, all three were stories of children deeply confused about their identity." I agree that mixed-race children have CAN have identity issues, my eldest Hungarian-English child has, though I wouldn't describe her as dssply confused. In the UK, same race foster parents are preferred. I also think racism exaccerbates these problems. Do you think Obama is deeply confused about his identity?

I agree with your remark about the formation of ghettoes in Western Europe. "There are serious ethnic tensions in France, the UK, Holland, Germany". The most serious in the UK are between Muslims and secular Britsh, but this is a culture issue not a racial issue. In fact, converts to Islam seem to be disproportionately involved in terrorism. The minority can not expect to impose its standards of behaviour on the majority, where this gives rise to a systematic conflict (i.e like the recognition of Islamic law). But this would apply to Anti-abortionists and animal-rights fundamentalists too: neither are race problems.

Thank you Demogague, for your post, because you have pretty much reinforced everything I wrote. Expats enrich the country by paying taxes? Yes, that is the typical argument for bringing hypermarkets or car tire factories here, but I was thinking of more valuable contributions to society than simply paying taxes. I would far rather have 100 gypsies or Hungarians pay taxes, and working supporting their families and communities across Hungary, than 500 expats doing so and working to support their drinking binges in Budapest, but the former can't because they are unemployed. They are not working because both traditional and non traditional employment for Hungarians has been systematically eliminated, in large part by foreign entities. Nigerians. First of all, Nigerians speak English because they were colonized. So you are using them for a language forced upon them, not because of anything they, as Nigerians, have to offer. They are being employed, as Indians are in call centers, because they are cheap. This is helping both Nigeria and Hungary? In what way? Hungarians are incapable of learning English enough to communicate in trade? And even if the shareholders are Hungarian, we really need more small business owners and tradesmen able to survive than a bunch of shareholders (who on earth has capital here in a country where people were stripped of it several times over) making even more money in, say, shipping stuff from China and selling it in Germany. I did stress sustainable enterprises in my post.
There are many reasons as to why expats are here. Mostly it seems that they are employed by multinationals, (the ones which destroyed many factories and businesses here), they are in real estate (no comment), they are out for some kind of adventure, or they can't get a job at home. I have looked at this site, and it shows that a great majority of those writing in have a very low opinion of the country and the people here, to put it mildly. There are many who are simply condescending. I have met many expats, and I can count on two hands those contributing added skills and knowledge, or culture. How are any expats on this site helping this country? I am new to the site, so please enlighten me.

Adrian had some scary encounters with beggars, and he says: "As far as I can tell they are all 'white".

So? They are honorary gypsies or just people seriously down on their luck. We didn't have many white beggars and homelessness was pretty much non-existent 20 years ago, they are a product of the new regime. Gypsies on the other hand have been doing the same thing since forever. With your support they will keep doing it in growing numbers. Why cannot you admit that we have a problem, and why don't you tell us what to do? We're in need of ideas.

As for mixing races and religions, let it be a choice. If you enjoy listening to the extremely loud hip-hop "music" of your black neighbor, I have no problem with that. I found it so annoying that I put my fist through the wall (you can only do that in the US, don't try it at home with brick walls).
I reserve the right to live in a white community.
Funny that no one objects to Jewish towns, no one is trying to put blacks, latinos or christians there. If they can have their own exclusive communities, white people can have them as well.
We don't need Asian and African immigrants in Hungary or anywhere in Europe. If you like them so much, pack up and move to their homeland.
I've seen the "melting pot" in action. I had to learn to live with it, not having a choice, but I never liked it and I moved out of the city as soon as I could afford a house in Upstate New York. It was beautiful, nice white folks, and I never had to lock my car in the parking lot.
Call me racist, but I prefer peace and quiet.

Demagogue: So the UK has no race relation problems. Are you joking? You have a law on race relations, which includes the related problems. You say that there will not be a beige humanoid, but then contradict yourself by saying the largest growing population in the UK is mixed. So what racial or cultural identity do they have? Indiscriminate cross breeding is not necessarily good for the gene pool by the way, there are illnesses and resistances built up in a persons resident country which, when transplanted to a country much further away, makes both that person and the recipient society vulnerable. Colonizers frequently killed off native populations this way.
I don't know what kind of Eastern Europeans are there eating mushrooms, I know many picking them, from Estonia, but I don't doubt there are many “undesirables” going to the UK, many Hungarian, that their home countries won't miss. If I were a third generation UK Sikh, I would want them sent home as well. As far as the other immigrants, there are many people leaving to fill jobs who 1) are degrading the rights of workers in the UK (Germany, France, etc.), this is the point of modern capitalism or 2) are providing needed skills because e.g. medical workers are in short hand because they have left for the US to make much more money, or the ever worsening education system is failing to provide them, though why the UK cannot produce enough bus drivers, and therefore has to employ Poles is beyond me. Either way, this is not a good thing for the UK and certainly not for Hungary where we are facing a health crisis with a shortage of health workers. Where did you get from my post that I was advocating isolation and inbreeding? I specified that I was talking about the degree of integration. I am not for total isolation, but I do not agree with the free flow of goods and services either. Immigrants have certainly enriched London, giving it edible food for one, but I think the fact that the number one name for newborns there last year being Mohammed is taking things a bit far.

Stan: "We didn't have many white beggars and homelessness was pretty much non-existent 20 years ago, they are a product of the new regime."

Of course now the Police have no right to arrest people just for not having a work place or being 'anti-social'. You really long to get back the old control society, of course without the Communists.

Many of the homeless people in Europe today are more in need of psychological help than just money or a place to live. Mental problems normally put them on the street.

But, the discussion was about 'Gypsies', so why do I never see any homeless 'Gypsies'? Maybe we should send all those 'Hungarian (read White)' homeless to a 'Gypsy'-training camp? They seem to be able always to get a 'proper' shelter, so we do not need always to stumble over them when I take my dogs for a walk. I never stumble over any 'Gypsies'.

Viking,
Pay attention son, I hate to explain everything multiple times. The point you so carelessly or carefully missed was that there were very few white folks begging on the streets two decades ago, but gypsies have been full time beggars (and thieves) since forever. White people with drinking or other mental problems have no place to go these days, while gypsies are collecting generous financial support, free housing and limitless tolerance from the state. Conclusion: white beggars are the product of the current regime, gypsies are just born or raised that way, they just like the job too much to give it up. Gypsies are the pros and whites are the amateurs.

*For the record: the word "gypsies" means "most gypsies" not all. Just trying to save space.

Stan: "gypsies are collecting generous financial support, free housing and limitless tolerance from the state."

So, which formular do I fill in to get that "generous financial support, free housing and limitless tolerance from the state"?

Viking,
So you are a gypsy after all. Well, if you want to apply for public support, ask your fellow gypsies for advice.

Just read the news about the gypsy who collected his 100,000Ft reward for not working. Another one came by, knocked him out, took the hundred grand and got on the bus. Quick phone call, gypsy posse jumped in a car with baseball bats, caught up with the bus, dragged down the robber and started tenderizing him when the police arrived.
What did we learn from this piece of news?
You (Viking) probably nothing, but the rest of us may have noticed that 100,000Ft is a lot of money for nothing or less than nothing. That's how gypsies can afford to have such necessities as cars, cell phones and baseball bats. Not to mention always having the free time for a good car chase or lynching. Nice people, you gotta love them. Of course if it was a bunch of white guys trying to get the money back from a gypsy robber, the liberal media would be screaming "racially motivated" attack on innocent gypsies. These guys will be out in no time, just business as usual in gypsyland.

Stan raises the important point that gypsies are frequently the victims of "gypsy" crime. As is the case with chavs and African Americans.

So, Stan, there are no special "Gypsie"-grants then? You cannot give any proof that Roma get special grants, in any form, that is not available for non-Roma. Correct, or prove it (as a first).

Not sure how this thread jumped to gypsies, but on "why do we never see any gypsies on the streets, begging and homeless" anyone bothering to take a moment and think about this would understand why this is so. For two expats who seem to have been living in Hungary for quite some time, I wonder how much you actually know about the Roma. Stan basically summed it up, but, basically it is yes, local governments cannot put gypsies out on the streets. 1) There are no special grants for gypsies as such, but priority is given to finding housing for low/no income families with children. The more children and the younger they are, the higher they go on the list. Also, the national system provides family and child support, (you must know that Adrian, if you have children here), meaning that they do not fall into the situation as Hungarians do when the latter lose their jobs and therefore cannot keep up rent, upkeep and utilities payments. It is in gypsy culture to have lots of children, and they begin young. (Anyone really concerned with the plight of the gypsies would start with the women.) These are not racist statements, they are facts. I have worked with civil and government programs for gypsies, so I have some experience here. In addition, they have Roma local governments for legal and social support. 2) They don't normally become victims of the apartment mafia because their apartments are normally not as valuable and also they have extended families to protect them. 3) If they do lose their homes, they have those extended families to turn to, and they have a higher tolerance for living together, in cramped circumstances than Hungarians do. Again, not a judgment, simply an observation. They tend to act as collectives, not individuals. In addition, they are far more resilient than Hungarians are. A Hungarian losing his/her existence see the situation as shameful and hopeless, and will often turn to a slow death (alcohol and the street) or a quick one (suicide). Turning to relatives or crime is not an option. Gypsies, on losing an apartment or income, are far more resilient. They will turn to family/state, or salvage or steal. These are (not unfounded) generalizations. Many gypsies who do not steal, and obviously there are a lot of Hungarians out there stealing, and given the fact that many of them are in government, and have stolen the nation's wealth, they have certainly stolen far more than the Gypsies. Gypsy leaders are proving a quick study there though.

Tunde,

thanks for an informative post. Yes, you are right: my family benefits enormously from child and education related payments, we are not - as far as I know - gypsies, and I have a fully declared significant private income, so my assumption is that all Hungarian families would be entitled to these benefits.

Your remarks about gypsy fertility interest me very much. There have been gypsies in the UK for a long time, and child benefits but no explosive population growth. UK gypsies still travel, Hungarian gypsies are settled. Do you think population growth is a result of settlement? Or do you think I comparing chalk with cheese?

Adrian:On travelers. I know little of UK travelers except that they are more European looking, that they are allowed to travel, and that there are conflicts with them as well. So they have few children? Nomadic forms of life do normally inhibit having lots of children. As the gypsy population in Hungary has increased sevenfold since 1945, with a boom in the last 10 years, I tend to think it is the generous state benefits of the post war regime, coupled with lack of employment and a phasing out of their traditional trades, that encourages having children, as Hungarian speaking gypsies were more or less settled before that time as well. Hungarians, as most Europeans, have fewer children in times of economic stress. (The Roma elite have nearly the same number of children as Hungarians.) That is certainly the case in depressed areas, where the state support is the only income they have. In Romania, where they still have traveling gypsies as well, the birthrate is “only” fivefold. Then again Romania gives far more support in kind than in money to gypsies there. The test would be to compare travelers and settled gypsies, but even then, you would need to take into account access to ways to make a living. BTW it was the Hungarian kings Zsigmond and Mátyás who gave the Roma the right to settle in Hungary, when they were being turned out of other countries and pretty much left them alone. It was the Habsburgs, as they were wont to do, who endeavoured to force them to settle and abandon their traditions and culture, in addition to taking their children and prohibiting their marrying.

On your earlier post. We were discussing mixing race, not similar cultures. (English-Hungarian v. African-Hungarian). Re: integration in the UK. A recent study shows that the suicide rates of South Asian women in the UK are far higher than majority, and more than in their country of origin. Could that have anything to do with identity and cultural problems?

Hi Tunde. In response to your post, I used taxes as an example. There wasn't enough space and I was already double-posting. But I hope you get my meaning, that immigration can diversify society and that the net cost of an immigrant to the country is less than a non-immigrant. I'm not advocating that we all move countries, just that in simple economic terms immigrants are useful for countries, especially to European countries where the birth-rate is falling and where the population is 'greying'. One solution the Hungarian Govt. tried (increasing child benefits) has, in the words of other people not me, only increased the birth-rate of the less desirable part of society, not the majority.
You referred to the UK's race relations legislation. Precisely which Race Relations Act were you referring to? The original legislation was designed to protect the rights of all minorities at a time when there was considerable racial tensions in the UK (80s). Those were the days when people still put signs up saying 'No Blacks, no Pakis and no Irish' in public places like pubs. I don't see why protecting the rights of minorities is a bad thing, as you seem to suggest. Yes we have our problems, but it's been a long time since people using race, not religion, nationality or culture, as a means of attacking someone or preventing them from pursuing a normal live (like getting a job), was a common occurance. However the PC brigade/lawyers have made a mockery of this legislation in the last decade, but probably because they have more interest in their own careers than justice. Which brings me onto your point about S.Asian women.
You're completely right to point this out but again it's a cultural issue, not a race problem. Look at the stats. Th young woman are from hardcore Hindi and Muslim peasant families who treat them like slaves and objects to be bartered. They aren't mixed race, so where is the identity clash that you speak off? This suicide rate is a cultural issue, not one of race or racial mixing.
My point about potential global homogeny and the increase in mixed-race kids in the UK are not contradictory. Some areas of the world seem to be certainly heading towards racial homogeny (Brazil, UK, maybe a few other countries) but I said that I don't forsee a homogenous world. Some people will mix, some won't.

(to be cont'd)

(whoops, didn't see, not don't see)

You refer to a survey carried out by The Times I believe (the increase in Mohammeds). Even if completely unbiased (which I doubt if it is The Times' study) it only related to London. London is not the whole UK. Most of Blighty is still predominantly white and not Muslim, which I take it was the why you referenced 'Mohammed', not 'Singh' or 'Kaur' - the most common middle names in the UK, due to all Sikhs having the same middle names. This doesn't indicate a Muslim or Sikh invasion, just that some cultural groups have a connection to a name. Kylie was a popular girl's name for a while, but it didn't indicate an invasion of Australians.

I know mixed Arab-Hungarians, African-Hungarians and Chinese-Hungarians. The identity problems they have are because of other people, ie prejudice and ignorant behaviour, not an inherent 'not knowing themselves' within them. That feeling is caused by others, not themselves. They are Hungarians, with one parent being Hungarian, the other not.

You seem to have a very negative image of ex-pats. Are the only ex-pats you meet are the ones having a moan on websites or getting drunk at the weekend? We're not all that bad. We make up a varied bunch, and yes some of them are wankers and jerks. But most foreign immigrants I know in Hungary are just getting their head down, working hard and trying to be part of society, no matter what colour or culture they are. Many work in multis, but most people who work in those companies are Hungarian. Rarely are they actually 'stealing' jobs. But I agree that division of labour is a typical capitalist trick so that's why it's much better if we work together rather than seeming being opposed just because of race or culture. I agree that Hungary needs more small businesses and self-employed people. Many immigrants who aren't being cubicle slaves are small business owners or employed. These are Hungarian companies, based in Hungary. Isn't this a good thing? I think it is and I hope you agree.
I sorry that you think that comments on these sites are harsh, but it's only an isolated forum. And really it's just a place for people have a moan and try to be funny/have a fight. I personally hope that I do help Hungary. I try to teach kids on a normal teachers wage. I help promote Hungarian artists, films, bands and DJs (ie culture) outside of Hungary. I'm learning Hungarian (intermediate). I have a Hungarian partner. Much like most ex-pats.

Sorry Tunde, ignore the S.Asian female suicide rate remark i made. It's late, I got threads all mixed up and I didn't see it was in reply to Adrian D. As you rightly pointed out that's a cultural issue. Nothing to do with race. My bad

Tunde:

I don't think you can generalise about the relationship between prosperity and ferility. The UK's experience during the initial stages of the industrial revolution - certainly a time of economic stress - was of rapidly increasing birth rates. I think if children become significant economic assets to parents - either to be despatched to factories or as entitlements for welfare checks, fertility will increase. But the same welfare incentives haven't had the hoped for effect on 'white' fertility, because they are not so economically significant. The flood of benefits which followed the birth of my third child was a pleasant surprise for me, but wasn't a factor in our family planning. Your remark about the ferility of the gypsy elite would also support this analysis.

Interestingly, Afro-caribbeans in have now been in the UK long enough for fertiltiy patterns to analysed across generations. The immigrant generation had similar fertility ratios to families that remained in the Caribbean, the second generation's fertility rate fell significantly and the third generation is not dissimilar to white British families. To my mind this pattern mirrors the more general assimilation of Afro-caribbeans in the UK. Perhaps the reason gypsies seem to be caught in the large-family trap is because in the main they have been unable to assimilate.

The economic value of children declined in the UK during the late industrial revolution because of factory and education acts which prohibited them from being used in factories, and sent them to school instead. Perhaps linking child benefit to school attendance (for all Hungarians) could be a way of promoting asssimilation and fertility.

Talking of mixed race, this just landed on my virtual doorstep

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/11/mixed-race

Dem,

I think Stan would see a "pattern" here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/dominic-lawson/dominic-lawson-the-racism-of-our-adoption-rules-1009592.html

I just hope he doesn't remember what I last posted about the Independent.

Adrian/dem: I don't know about Stan, but I see two patterns in dem's link. Guess which ones they are. BTW a journalist of whatever color applauding the election of Obama because of his color is not only bordering on reverse racism, but also really stupid. I didn't applaud the rise of Madeleine Albright, Condeleeza Rice or Margaret Thatcher. None of them did anything for women or minorities, I doubt Obama will either. Get back to your other posts later.

Tunde

You are speaking my kind of language ,go for it and don't let your antagonists intimidate you with word games, Good luck

@Tunde /"Interesting article by... Larry Pinkney…" 600, SIX
HUNDRED million $$ US to put Peachy in the White House? (Black
House now…) Wow! That's one high priced piece of black ass!
Who backed him anyway? Was it the Honorable Louis Farrakhan?
The rev. Jesse Jackson? Jennifer Hudson? Or granny Sarah from
Kogelo? I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of "From Al
Capone to Obama, the changing face of Chicago politics" to find
out. As for Rahm I would probably have to read the Turner
Diaries or the touching love story of Golan Cipel and governor
McGreevey... Bogár László BTW wrote /barikad.hu/node/20272/
a pretty interesting article on the subject too... "Colonizers
frequently killed off native populations this way" Bird flu will be
just as bad and it's coming for sure unless we stop the folks that
carry it. If we could only get our ruined immune system back in
shape which I doubt.
@FayeFaye /"To me being Hungarian was always a citizenship
question…" & for a privileged child of the People's Republic, the
Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward who is still phobic
to the Four Olds, it _would be… For the rest of us and the
English who never let guillotines corrupt _their history,
Hungarian and Magyar are *hungaricus* and magyar even if our
vernacular uses 'magyar' for both just to confuse the confused
even more. Košút, Дамјанић, or the Archduke Joseph Anton (b.
k. a. József nádor) were all Hungarians, hungarici, for example
but not Magyar. Apponyi was Magyar though and so is today any
csángó peasant that is also a *Romanian citizen.* Esterházy and
Görgey were German Hungarians. In fact if Adrian told me he
feels he belongs here and he is now Hungarian, I wouldn't doubt
him any more than I doubt His Apostolic Majesty, King Otto,
who is again _German Hungarian. Most Gypsies in rump
Hungary and its neighbors are also Hungarian. They are not
Magyars though just like King Otto, Dobson Tibor or Draskovics
isn't Magyar. "Who would these ethnic magyars be, when we
have been so mixed…" Not as mixed as you believe. It takes
eons to substantially change a gene pool and Magyars despite
all the "mixing" are still genetically closer to Persians than any
other race which is pretty unique in Europe. Next closest are the
Ashkenazim who are also a lot closer to our first nations (the
Seven Tribes) than Slovak, Croat or German Hungarians. Despite
BTW mixing with the Sephardim (since Joseph II.) for at least
three centuries which is also pretty unique in Europe.

No real point to the link, just put it there cos we were discussing mixed race people and identity crisis. I linked to the article because it seemed like a nice coincidence. So please don't read any messages into it.

Notice that there are no comments about my treatise on ex-pats and foreigners living here. Am I the only one trying to build bridges here (Ricsi excepted) or is everyone else just content to have a go at each other all the time? We all know that Stan and Viking will never be able to sit in the same room (unless they are both the products of the same mind), but tat doesn't mean that we all have to be like that.

Maybe that's what Hungary needs right now. More bridge building and less bashing each other over the head just because we have a difference of opinion. Personally I find all the fear and loathing stuff a bit tiring, don't you?

Dem: Actually your link I thought was right on target. The woman grew up not knowing who she was, you can chalk that up to the inherent racism in Conventry was it? Or you could say that is something many people are experiencing, even in the ultimate melting pot, the US. Also, the other pattern I noticed was that she was brought up by her white mother. I find that a pattern amongst black men. This is my experience, I don't know the statistics, but I have seen it as a story line on UK soaps, it is common in the US (massively compounded due to the crime) and of the Hungarian-African marriages I have seen here up close I don't know one where the man stayed. I am really missing 100% black man in Bp comments on this, where is he?

Why do you think this is fear and loathing? I think we are having a debate.

Haven't addressed the expat thing, because Adrian keeps bringing other things up and I am afraid I would have to triple post on that one.

Adrian: Yes Fayefaye was implying that. You all are. You are all saying that unlimited integration/immigration/mixing races is “good” and that limited those things is “bad”. We are told we are advocating racism, isolationism and inbreeding. So all the problems with different cultures are due to the intolerance of the resident population? Interesting that Holland is having real problems and the Dutch are just famous for their intolerance I suppose. Good interview on this, and how multicultural model is failing in Germany with a Pázmány uni. expert: . http://www.katolikusradio.hu/?m_id=4&m_op=viewmusor&id=173817(A velünk élő iszlám).

Visitor. Knew about the money, really obscene amount. That is how his campaign disposed of Hillary Clinton. Jesse Jackson was behind him, but I think they were using him. Re: citizenship. Yes that is a really silly thing to say, particularly for a Hungarian. Even the “communists” didn't deny that there are lots of Hungarians without Hungarian citizenship.

Demagogue thinks that Stan is a monster, and he says: "We all know that Stan and Viking will never be able to sit in the same room".

I'm a jolly good guy, a mild mannered Santa Claus, and rarely butcher people in public.
I think it would be interesting to meet some of the regulars here to see who's behind those opinionated posts. Who knows, maybe the management of Pestiside and Politics.hu decide to organize a huge party for us, Hungarian style, ox and pig roast with all the trimmings, and a swimming pool of champaigne. Any day now...

Stan,

Ricsi and Dem. are organising a meet for the 28th November, but I understand its going to be cheap and cheerful. I'm scared of HotP, so I'm not going, but I think everyone else should go, and post their review of the fest. Although, I have a sickening suspicion that everyone - except HotP -will be nice to everybody else, especially Ricsi.

Tunde,

"Adrian: Yes Fayefaye was implying that. You all are. You are all saying that unlimited integration/immigration/mixing races is “good” and that limited those things is “bad”."

I am not the liberal whipping-boy of your dreams. I agonise over the identity-issues I have inflicted on my children, and urge them to think of themselves of Hungarians with an English father, rather than half-English. Because, descriptively, I don't think anyone who hasn't been socialised in England can be English. And prescriptively, because there are too many people in Hungary like you who think ex-pats like me are:

"Mostly employed by multinationals...they are out for some kind of adventure... or they can't get a job at home....have a very low opinion of the country and the people here....are simply condescending....[not] contributing added skills and knowledge, or culture...[or]helping this country"

This is this is the sort of remark Stalin made about 'skilled' foreign workers who had been encouraged to settle in the USSR under Lenin, shortly before he confiscated their passports and sent them to labour camps.

Adrian D: I see decorum flies out the window on this blog. The key difference other than the fact that Stalin was a mad butcher, and I am not, is that he had it wrong, whereas unless there are hundreds of expats I don't know about hidden in the depressed rural areas of Hungary working day and night to absorb the culture and contribute something to it, I doubt I am too far off the mark. I have a pretty good overview of the people who have come here since 1989, and the average is not positive.

Tunde:

I am not going to toot my own horn or lay my, or my friends' credentials out here on everybody else's time, but I can assure you there are plenty of us here (some, working at public schools on a Hungarian wage, some working with NGOs and cultural institutions, some creating institutions of their own) who contribute plenty, and even do what they can to disseminate their experiences here, if not Hungarian culture itself, abroad. Perhaps think again before making such sweeping judgments.

Adrian D: A quick click on Politics.hu last night showed your comment first, which provided the information that you worked for a tobacco multinational here for 8 years. Congratulations. You worked not only for a multi (i.e. transnational, the ones with no loyalty to anything but profit), but also for one way at the bottom of the multinational slime pool. And now you are in education here, how very comforting to know. The modern day tobacco industry has to be one of the most loathsome industries out there. And it wasn't by chance, Philip Morris was it? Which bought, and then promptly closed the Egri Dohánygyár? For anyone interested, tobacco privatisation by multinationals is never a good thing for the locals (www.takingontobacco.org. Even the Soviets, who did their best to promote widespread cigarette and alcohol abuse here, have nothing on global tobacco, which while killing 28000 Hungarians a year with that additive laced poison they push as a cigarette (8000 more than then under our previous dictatorship) puts on campaigns like sponsoring of Save the Children. You say you agonise about your children's identity issues. Lose any sleep about people dying of cigarettes? And being so terribly concerned with the plight of the gypsies, you must surely know that they are the ones most vulnerable to cigarette related deaths. You really have nerve then, to have posted the above last comment to me. Comparing me to Stalin and yourself to the legions of truly talented people who went to the Soviet Union to contribute to what seemed like a wonderful experiment, who created a variety of wonderful things in awful conditions before meeting their tragic ends (labour camps weren't all, many were butchered) is a going a bit too far even on this one-sided blog. No wonder you were so charitable towards the World Bank in our debate. Oh, and let me guess. You yourself, don't smoke that poison.

Tunde,

It's worse than you think. Both my stepfather - ephesymia at 61 - and my father - mouth cancer at 63, died of smoking related illnesses. My public school had been generously endowed with tobacco money.

I don't actually lose any sleep about people gypsies or otherwise dying of smoking, though smokers choking up the healthcare system does irritate me. My father threw me out of the house when I tried to phyisically stop him smoking. But I never thought it was a very edifying way to make a living, and I'm much happier teaching.

Don't worry: I don't promote smoking in class, and my anecdotes about tobacco production technology may have even persuaded a colleague to give up. I am in favour of a complete ban on school premises, that's not very liberal is it.

On the old subject of lies, I was working in Russia for an unnamed tobacco multinational when industry leaders appeared before the
Senate commitee (1995 or 6) to testify that they knew of no link between smoking and disease. (I left the company shortly after - am I purged yet, or do I need further re-education?) This was not just a lie, it was a momumentually stupid lie.

If you want to start a smoking and education thread, can I suggest we go back to politics.hu, - let's try to keep things tidy.

Finally, why pick on me? HotP has done as much time as me in international tobacco, and Stan wants to legalise Marijuana (I used to agree, but you-know-who will be the major beneficies - I've seen the trademarks). Reading your post again , I realise I must have touched a nerve. Sorry.

Why do you give soviet guest workers (truly talented) and the current generation of ex pats (drunken adventurers) such different glosses? Most of the reasons you give for ex-pat motivation, apply equally.

Tunde,

PS I am no way responsible for this article being the featured article on wikipedia today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany

Tunde, since I was brought back into this: I really don't see anything wrong with unlimited mixing, no culture has ever suffered form cross-insemination. Cultures and 'traditions' are arbitrary, constantly evolving constructs and to preserve an also arbitrary snapshot of it is naive, you can like one or the other more but cannot make a value judgment between what has passed and what is about to come. To me it seems problems usually arise from exactly not mixing, when individuals see themselves as other and grow to resent their perceived status. I cannot really comment on a mixed-race experience, as I never had one, but as far as mixed-nationalities go, when I went to university practically every one around me seemed to be half-something, and they did nothing but benefit from it, being bilingual for a start, open minded and equally at home wherever they went. One of my best friends is half-Polish, half-Hungarian, born in Belgium and went to an international school. He speaks 5 languages fluently, now works for the EU and he is as proud of Belgian beers as he is of the Hungarian water polo team. And to think he's a second generation immigrant...

About not adding anything to local culture, I worked for a year in a non-profit gallery founded by an American art-dealer purely to give opportunity to young Hungarian artists to exhibit, also using her business connections to take an exceptionally talented young girl to the most influential art fair in Miami, an opportunity practically no one has in this country. Also volunteering there was another American lady who took part in the docent program at the Szepmuveszeti, and went on to establish the same program at Ludwig. I know, you need 3 cases to make a trend, but everyone else seems quite happy to draw generalised conclusions from isolated examples here.

Faye faye,

"when I went to university practically every one around me seemed to be half-something, and they did nothing but benefit from it,"

I think your observation follows from the university setting where you made it. Bilingualism research does detail many identity problems, but they tend to cluster around socio-economic disadvantage. The use of minority langauge among immigrant communities is problematic when the language can convey minority status. The use of Spanish and English is politically contested in US latino communities. Where parents never really learn the majority language, children can grow to resent having to use the minority language with them.

Of course, now, my children are usually greatly admired for their fluency in English. But as the MIEP woman sneered, by her standards, they are not really Hungarian. In the future our nationalist posters hope for, it is possible that my children will be condemned for their use of English, as well as their degenerate ancestry, especially if ex-pats and multi-nationals are held to be responsible for despoiling Hungary's wealth and debaunching its morality, encouraging its children to smoke etc.. The use of foreign langauges will be suspect in itself, "Nem kell olyan Isten aki nem tud magyarul".

Adrian, should that dark vision of the future ever come true though, you're children will be in a more privileged position to emigrate - they probably already have a much more fluid image of the world than this artificial and rigid system of borders - than my Hungarian friends who would be equally keen on leaving such a country.

FayeFaye (singing):

"C'est la lutte finale
Groupons-nous, et demain
L'Internationale
Sera le genre humain".

Oookaaay...I don't get that. I mean, I understand it, but I don't know what you mean by it, please elaborate?

I'll take this one Stan. Adrian D. FayeFaye. Now those are truly stupid remarks. And one MIEPer does not make a nation. FayeFaye you are right, there will be no borders, no nations, no cultures, everything will be a fluid emptyness. Adrian's children won't have to emigrate. From what? To where? Adrian in your Brave New Starbucks World language will not be a problem, as dem's humanoids will be speaking form of Anglosperanto. It was only due to sheer determination that the Hungarian language managed to survive, but I suppose its disappearance won't be mourned by either of you. A language, dialect, vernacular, accent or local expression dies every minute all over the world. You guys are winning.

To your other comments later.

Doubt that there would ever be one Starbucks nation, humans are too petty and self-interested to cooperate on that level, as soon as they coalesce into a recognisable group they immediately fracture into smaller cliques. Despite the EU, or even because of it, giving a forum to minorities, look at Serbia-Montenegro, even Scotland wants to be independent now. Whilst some dialects disappear, new ones are created all the time, for example no one understands half the words British teenagers use. Latin didn't die, it turned into Italian, French and so on, a process that today's conservative language purists would deeply begrudge. English, a language that seemingly has thousands of accents and dialects, has spread throughout the world, but it didn't stay homogeneous, English in Australia, South Africa or New Zealand is so different that they are close to becoming languages in their own rights. Traditions disappear, some bad, some good - I'll assume you're a girl, and that you are happy that you can vote - but *sigh* what is new today will be the tradition of the future.

Missed your last bit: Of course I would mourn if Hungarian disappeared, it is my mother-tongue hence I think it's the most beautiful language in the world. I idolised my Hungarian teacher at high school and I thought I was going to go collect dialects like him. But that is purely sentimental, personal, like the thought of my own death would be very sad for me, but has no effect on the world as a whole. Language is a tool and as such one is just as good as the next. Hungarian survived, that's one way to look at it, but it's not same Hungarian, go back to the halotti beszed, it's incomprehensible to us, but it's not even the Hungarian spoken a hundred years ago. Like a river and such, cannot step in the same one twice.

FF,
I love Budapest and I love New York, and the small villages in France and Italy and so on. Each has its unique local flavor, culture, heritage and language. I'm not the only one who like it this way. Why wash it all together into an internationalized new world order? Language is not just a "tool", it's much more than that. What will happen to our cultural heritage, the exceptionally great Hungarian poets when our language disappears? Just let it go, who cares, you say? Diversity is great, but not the way you envision it. France should stay French, Italy Italian, and so on. Borders are needed (once we can agree on where to put them). Good fences make good neighbors. Easy and free border crossing is nice, I love to travel, but keep it on a tourist level, mass migration is not in our best interest. Only give citizenship rights to those who deserve it and in limited numbers. Locals feel better, safer in a familiar environment, and they are more important than political correctness or any other liberal ideas.

Tunde,

"Now those are truly stupid remarks"

If I had said one the MIEP lady was representative of the Hungarian nation, it would have been a truly stupid remark. But I didn't, not least because I think my wife and children are as representative of the Hungarian nation as the MIEP lady.

"A language, dialect, vernacular, accent or local expression dies every minute all over the world. You guys are winning."

I have a vested interest in multilingualism, how does that make me one of "you guys"?

In general, Tunde, you often make insightful comments which I can learn from, but too often you simply extend my remarks into positions I do not hold and then attack them. As someone who has complained about lies in public discourse, you should be aware that some writers regard this as a dishonest form of argumentation. The only defence I have against your persistant misrepresentation of my views is to restate them more fully and hopefully more clearly. Needless to say, this is boring.

Adrian D: “In the future our nationalist posters hope for, it is possible that my children will be condemned for their use of English, as well as their degenerate ancestry,” And then there was my post on American blacks, which you summed it up by writing I was talking about a group (the high percentage of young American blacks in unemp.,crime/drugs) as a race, when it was obvious I was not so. But this was not misrepresenting my views. Glad you learn something from my posts, I have yet to learn anything from yours. Your style of debate is simply to attack, often without substantiation. And you're right, it is worse than I thought. I am keeping the comment here because the issue is not tobacco, it is migration, the reasons for it, and addressed my expat comment. For never thinking it was an edifying way to make a living, 8 years is quite a haul. I didn't say you promoted tobacco to your students,(I even assumed you do not smoke) I was referring to the mindset of a teacher who worked for a multinational. Glad to know you lose no sleep, but then English public schools in Britain are known for instilling a total lack of compassion for one's fellow being. Then they are promoted to government, finance, and industry. Why not run for MP here, as a Free Democrat? Your nationality wouldn't be a problem, as they are also internationalists. They also bash the ill (smokers, alcoholics, diabetics, etc) while promoting the industries aggressively propagating those lifestyles. So what was your point in the wiki link, that banning tobacco is fascist? FYO, I personally do not advocate a total ban on tobacco. There are forms of it, in moderation, I even enjoy. It is the industry that creating chain smokers. The high percentage of lung disease came with capitalism. You weren't reeducated, you knew it beforehand. Worse than the naïve fool buying the death industry's propaganda is the person who works for them knowing the truth.
Didn't read HotP's comment, and this has nothing to do with marijuana, which is not a killer industry. Neither he nor Stan made the Stalin/ guest workers comparison. I think I touched the original nerve, and boy, does this shoe fit here.
„Why do you give soviet guest workers (truly talented) and the current generation of ex pats (drunken adventurers) such different glosses? Most of the reasons you give for ex-pat motivation, apply equally.”
What are you talking about? How do the reasons apply equally?

@mokus, demagogue, Adrian D. M: Sweeping generalizations are only sweeping when unfounded. A “you are wrong” won't suffice on this one. (Why are the “nationalists” the only ones having to prove their points?) “Given the number of prematurely world-weary young men and women who followed the lure of easy money, cheap alcohol and even cheaper sex to the geopolitical discount bins of the former Soviet Union and Eastern bloc, ... says a book review http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7019-16.cfm an entire page on Eastern Europe as a sex object, not only symbolically. Forgot to mention those coming to Hungary for sex either for the “easy” beautiful Hungarian women (educated, and they can cook too!), or the prostitute, pornographic, or pedophile industries. Hungary has become the Thailand of Europe. No wonder “Desire” came here. Two other links: www.unece.org/press/pr1996/96gen40.htm, http://www.globalpolitician.com/21072-eastern-europe-russia, are summaries of how Eastern Europe gets the worst of both the west and the underdeveloped countries, (who in turn degrade values, workers rights, buy up the property etc) while at the same time seeing its best flee. All a result, not surprisingly, of the neoliberal paradigm. These threads do come together nicely.

Tunde,

"What are you talking about? How do the reasons apply equally"

Glad that after the usual round of over- generalisations, (people working for multinationals, public school boys, my style of debate) you actually got round to asking some questions: as I tell my students, it's usually a sign of intelligence.

Getting on to the similarities between Soviet guest and the current generation of ex-pats, Alex Nove sums up the former's mixed motivations

" A considerable number of foreign specialists and skilled workers came to the USSR in these years; some were under contract with foreign firms to help erect the new factories and teach their Russian colleagues. Others went to Russia as idealistic volunteers, or because of the growth of mass unemployment in the West as the depression deepened."
An Economic History of the USSR, 1989, pg 199.

In 1993, I came to teach - management accounting - so maybe my motivation in Hungary has always been an educational one.

One of more interesting 'unemployment' stories is that of the American Finns:

"Stalin also targeted foreign fellow travellers, of whom the 25,000 'American Finns' were probably the most numerous. These were Finnish-speaking Finns, some had emigrated to America, some had been born there, all came to the Soviet Union during the 1930s, the years of the Great Depression in the United States. Most were factory workers, and most had been unemployed in the United States. Encouraged by Soviet propaganda - Soviet recruiters travelled around Finnish-speaking cornmunities in the United States, speaking of the wonderful living conditions and work opportunities in the USSR
they flocked to the Finnish-speaking Karelian Republic. Almost immediately, they caused problems for the authorities. Karelia was not, it turned out, much like America. Many loudly pointed this out to anyone who would listen, then tried to return - and wound up in the Gulag in the late 1930s instead."

Anne Applebaum, "Gulag", 2003, pg 129-130

(Cont.)

Tunde, (cont.)

My favourite ex-pat story has to be the fictionalised account of William Rhodes given by A.C.Macdonell, "England, their England", 1933, pg 207. William had survived his previous trips to Russia, to narrate how his travels were fuelled by his love of machinery.

""Have you ever been in Hungary, Mister?"

"No," replied Donald, "but I've got a friend out there who says--"

"I would like right weIl to hear about him," said William sincerely. "I spent two years in Hungary once with a machine for weeding between the rows of fruit-trees. It's a lovely country - Hungary, with miles of peaches and apples and cherries, but they were terrible troubled with weeds. Fine chaps, those Hungarians; I liked them. It was a lovely machine. I took it out to show those fellows how to use it, and I stayed two years. Queer, wasn't it?""

Now, go to, Tunde, but try to attack the message rather than the messenger.

...on reflection. I was invited to Hungary to work for the police to teach Criminology and to help develop a new curriculum that included more socially appropriate ways of policing (negotiation rather than nightstick), cultural awareness, and how to deal with occupational hazards such as depression and anxiety. I rarely drink myself now, and only did so in the company (and at the insistence) of police officers, who I have to say consumed more alcohol than I could have imagined possible. I actually chose to pay my taxes in Hungary rather than my home country. I spend most of my salary touring around cultural and historical sites. I love history, I love culture and sociology. I have strong values of FAIR rather than 'free' trade. I believe strongly in the preservation of language and cultural groups and think that diversity is what makes humanity interesting. I also fell in love with a local girl, and am now engaged. I fully intend, should we have children, to have them learn both English and Hungarian, and you can be sure, will encourage them to learn Hungarian history. (from sources other than 'only' English speaking literature) Hungary is a beautiful (if troubled) country and I hope that somehow I might be able to contribute something worthwhile. I always listen to what people say, and try not to react in a way that is less than civil. (I don't always succeed in this, however, and regret the times I have been rude or otherwise uncharitable.)
...enough of me...
of the group of other professionals recruited by the same org (Hungarian semi-government), there was an American media and communications specialist, an Australian chemistry/maths/English teacher, a Finnish English teacher, and an Italian Languages teacher. None of us worked for multinationals, and all of us were far too busy and I daresay committed to our work to spend much time boozing or supporting the sex industry.
...In the extended group of expats I met, there was a bio-fuels expert, a nurse/early childhood teacher in training, an Iranian neuroscience student and his American girlfriend who was/is a history/literature student.
...come to think of it, of ALL the expats I met, I didn't meet any that fit Tunde's description. Her comment WAS a sweeping generalisation simply because it did not account for the people even right in major cities that she probably never saw. Could it just be the people we associate with?

@Erik /"as they are kitten-kicking psychopaths…" Right. Kitties
should be artfully drowned before the buttfucking
"performansz" at Sirály…
@Demagogue /"Many Ethiopians regard themselves as white..."
Dat's because in Ethyopyan black means white. So when you
says black dey thinks you says white and dey calls you a blind
motherfucker. How do you BTW think the orwellian-totalitarian
nightmare in the UK is related to your progressive-multicultural
experience? "I try to teach kids" Demagogues teach our kids.
Nothing ever changes in Hungary... I mean some things do.
Twenty years ago Demagogues taught Russian. "You are wrong
about 'serious' racial tension in the UK" O RLY? We must have
completely misunderstood those big bangs in 2005. "I'm sure
that many of the most recent wave of immigrants into Hungary
are economic migrants. But they do enrich the country." Can you
give us three (3) concrete examples of enriching? Dr. Nelson we
already heard of... It would be nice to hear from anon too what
his friends actually *did* or do
@100% /Africans have no achievements whatsoever, couldn't
ever organize a state that functioned with or without aid,
HORSES in fact contributed more to human civilization than
Africans. Fekete Pákó represents African high culture. You are
immoral, disease ridden & bloodthirsty & we are supposed to
welcome you with open arms when our own ship is sinking. How
insane.

Now we're rocking. Anon and Visitor on board. Lets not degenerate again into Hungarian bilingual nationalists versus Ex-pat Anglophone liberals. I want create some logical space for my opinions. I think Tunde's observations about ex- pats are true:

"Mostly it seems that they are employed by multinationals, (the ones which destroyed many factories and businesses here), they are in real estate (no comment), they are out for some kind of adventure, or they can't get a job at home. I have looked at this site, and it shows that a great majority of those writing in have a very low opinion of the country and the people here, to put it mildly."

Notice the quantifier "mostly", notice the verb "seems": if only she could always post like this. Very few of us ex-pats as are good as Anon or the guilded ex-pat circle in which moves, (can I join?).

It was her romanticisation of Soviet Guest workers that got up my nose.

"the legions of truly talented people who went to the Soviet Union to contribute to what seemed like a wonderful experiment, who created a variety of wonderful things in awful conditions"

25,000 Finnish American factory wokers would hardly fall into the category of truly talented. Right from the onset it was obvious that the Soviet Union wasn't wonderful, experiment or otherwise. During my stay in post-soviet Russia there was a distinct scarcity of wonderful things, but the conditions were still awful. I expect they still are for the majority of Russians.

Who will take up Visitor's challenge, "Can you
give us three (3) concrete examples of enriching"? Not me, I only pay all my taxes and help out my colleagues out as much as possible.

@Visitor - define enriching?

presumably...

1: enrich sth (with sth) to improve the quality of sth, often by adding sth to it: The study of science has enriched all our lives. Most breakfast cereals are enriched with vitamins.

2: to make sb/sth rich or richer: a nation enriched by oil revenues. He used his position to enrich himself.

(OALD)

Adrian D - visitor has his own 'hungarian' definitions of everything. Let him define first - examples can come later. Otherwise circuitous pointless debating.

@Visiting Hungarian retard - "Africans have no achievements whatsoever, HORSES in fact contributed more to human civilization . Fekete Pákó represents African high culture"
Pako keep Hungary entertained, including retard.
http://tiny.cc/lvw9e
Hungarian high culture or Seabiscuit's contribution to Hungary? http://tiny.cc/Zi0jT

Axie,
Visitor has a point. Do you?

Axeman,

my experience of Visitor's posts leads me to think that he wouldn't want to commit himself to something as mundane as a definition. He prefers the suggestive, the allusive and the obscure - not that I don't enjoy his posts because of it, just that he is frustratingly unlikely to nail his colours to a mast.

On the subject of Africa, I've been wondering how V. (Thomas Pynchon, anyone?) would define Africa, because although there are good non-racial reasons why sub-Saharan Africa has not led the charge in cultural evolution (Guns, Germs and Steel), Egypt has played an important role in our own Judeo-Christian culture. The earliest alphabetic inscriptions we have are at Serabit el-Khadem, on the Sinai penisular, now in modern Egypt. (Language Visible, David Sacks, 2003).

@Stan - yes!
Superficial information not justify stereotype, whether tunde or visitor. Eugene sharpen axe to break Thin Ice.

What comes around goes around.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20081114/tuk-expats-in-spain-may-face-anger-6323e80.html

Vistor: "Not as mixed as you believe. It takes
eons to substantially change a gene pool and Magyars despite all the "mixing" are still enetically closer to Persians than any other race which is pretty unique in Europe. Next closest are the Ashkenazim who are also a lot closer to our first nations (the
Seven Tribes) than Slovak, Croat or German Hungarians. Despite BTW mixing with the Sephardim (since Joseph II.) for at least three centuries which is also pretty unique in Europe"

Which scientific evidence do you have for this?

FYI this year the biggest ever DNA comparison was released for Europe and it showed very small difference West-East, meaning hardly any difference between a British Douche bag and a Polish plumber. Bigger difference between North and South, meaning we Vikings are not sissy Italians. The only group that actually stood out was the Finns. The Hungarians were so mixed that no real difference could be found to other Middle Europeans.

Viking's claim "Bigger difference between North and South" parallels Jared Diamond's (Guns, germs, and steel) claim that it was more difficult for civilisation to travel north-south than east-west because of climatic changes. Hence Sub-saharan Africa was isolated from the influence of middle eastern culture.

Re tobacco: When I first arrived on the continent(in Germany), I was surprised at how many people smoke. I kind of expect older people to have more casual attitudes to it, but was a bit horrified when I saw so many younger people doing it too. Not content with the cancer risk of tobacco though, I was shocked at the number of Szolariums in Hungary. You might as well just cook up a nice 'yellow cake' and bask in its warm glow. This leads me to a comment made by a police trainee during one of my seminars about dealing with ethnic tensions."The problem with Gypsies is their brown skin." I thought this was a little ironic given the obsession with doing everything possible to darken skin.
Re Adventure: I don't really see the problem with someone going to another country for a bit of adventure, as long as they don't 'shit on the rug' so to speak. There's certainly nothing new about traveling to new and unfamiliar places, and if nothing else, is a good chance for lesser known places to showcase the richness of their culture.
Re Language and Culture: Perhaps surprisingly, I am not unsympathetic to some of what Stan says. If people want to hold on to their culture and way of life, I generally don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to, as long as it is truly mutual and is not oppressive. I really don't think the world is heading towards a Starbuck's reality.
Re multiculturalism: I think Debrecen is the most diverse place I have visited in Hungary.I have to say it was just beautiful, and interestingly was where I saw much more of Hungarian culture than anywhere else. Multiculturalism can work as long as everyone is genuine about getting along and working together. Don't knock it till you try it.
...as an offering of a humble opinion: I don't think most expats 'hate' Hungary. The ones that do probably get out as fast as possible for somewhere more comfortable. I tend to think that forums like this are more an escape valve for the anxiety of living in a country where things are just so fundamentally different, and where I'm sure even local Hungarians must admit, bureaucratic fatigue is a killer.
Re Obama: I kind of wonder how long it will be till the disillusionment sets in...not because I disrespect the man, but more because the expectations are way too much for one individual.
Still, I say, "More Power to Ya" (him). Whether you like his politics or not, surely we could all agree that Obama is a step up from Bush. Couldn't we?

I forgot to mention...Adrian, I met some really interesting expats through the Hungarian cricket association. http://www.hungary4cricket.com/
While I'm talking cricket. I had the pleasure of playing against a team that included some of the Hungarian national side. One particular guy was a 'full blood' Hungarian, and a pretty damn good cricketer. Most of the guys I met had Hungarian partners and families, and as far as I could tell were fine, upstanding, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens.
Also, in my previous list of expats I've had the privilege to meet, I forgot to mention the Indian restaurant owner. (Indian by birth) A very funny guy and a master with the bat.
I would certainly never claim to be a member of a gilded circle. I only brought it up because I really hate being lumped in a category without due cause. My idea of a good time is not partying till I puke, and neither am I some 'Chardonnay Socialist'.I prefer going for long walks around the streets with my girlfriend looking for historical sites and pestering her to translate every plaque and sign. Hungary is a treasure trove of interesting places and things to see.

Re tobacco, solariums: And mobile phones. Smoking had a 300 year run before being fingered for causing disease, it was the cigarette that caused the problem rather than tobacco. It is a nicotine delivery system which gives smokers a quick, powerful hit with minimum inconvenience cf. pipes and cigars. Even so it took 30-40 years of massive smoking to isolate it as a vector is disease, the issue being that smoking related diseases usually take a long time to develop. cf. deydration deaths associated with Ecstasy, or hard drug overdoses. I am guessing the disease inducing effects of holding mini microwave transmitters to our skulls will not be apparent for a similar period.

Re Adventure and gilded circles: I enjoyed my years of adventure 93-96 but pretty much in the ways that Tunde and Visitor would find deplorable and not very enriching for the host countries. I don't see why ex-pats need to do more than Hungarians to justify our existence here. However, I curious to find out if any of us still think we are enriching Hungary. After the change of system, a few of my Thatcherite colleagues were just as idealistic as Tunde thinks guest workers in Soviet Russia were.

Re: Language and Culture: I'm beginning to rue my starbucks metaphor, I just wanted to refer to skin colour - I think that most western capitals are already like this, and as long as ghettoes are not formed races merge - seems to be true of Hungarians who were once racially mongoloid. Multiculturalism, I think is severely limited. Hungary is very much part of Europe cf. Russia, living in Hungary is not radically dissimilar to living in England. Certain aspects of other cultures cannot be tolerated in our post-christian civilisation for example, polygamy, honour killings, female genital mutilation etc. Tunde is right when she writes - Anyone really concerned with the plight of the gypsies would start with the women. Post-Christian society has made huge progress over its treatment of women, through legislation. To support an non-superficial multiculturalism you would have to have support a multilegal system, to someone like me whose primary political commitment is to "Law's Empire" this is impossible. For recidivist gypsies and islamists alike, assmilation is the only direction forward. My objections to Racism are that it is opposed to the principle of equality before the law, and that it restricts/prohibits assimilation.

Adrian, you made some really good points in your last post. I do agree with your sentiment about questioning why expats should have to justify their existence here. As far as 'enriching' the country goes, I kind of feel it would be arrogant of me to assume I had some cultural superiority to impart. On the other hand, I do think I have expertise that can be useful. In this way, I would see it more as a contribution. Along with this, I do find it frustrating that a lot of my suggestions are met with resistance and even sometimes resentment simply because I am a foreigner. To be fair, this is not just a Hungarian thing, as I have experienced it just about everywhere I've worked.
I also really agree with you about dealing with women's issues in the gypsy population. One of my clients worked for an NGO specialising in such things, and we were agreeing about the shades of disadvantage even amongst marginal groups.
It's all too long to write about here, but I have done some really interesting research on the values of education in reducing primary and recidivist crime, especially when it targets the less powerful such as women and children. The result of this is that the cost of developing such programmes is offset by the savings in lower crime rates and incarcerations (which is bloody expensive) and a greater sense of social cohesion.
I also think that yes, Hungary is far more Western European than Eastern. eg: Kiev which is just a short flight from Budapest.
I'm not so sure about the multi-legal system thing though. I tend to think that compromise can be reached in most cases and that I have seen what I would consider more than just superficial multiculturalism in some places I've been. I do agree with you about certain behaviours not being tolerable, which I think fits in with what I said. Indigenous issues are interesting though, and the debate continues on this. Once again though, this is a very complex topic and one that I fear I could never do justice to in a forum style.

sorry for the double posting again...but speaking of public health risks. I think I saw the ultimate in tempting fate the other day. A guy riding a bicycle (dangerous enough on its own)in the blazing sun with no hat or helmet, smoking a cigarette, with a radio slung onto the handlebars, while riding one-handed and talking on a mobile phone.
If only I had my camera that day.

@FayeFaye. Re: expats in Hungary, migration, etc. As with everything, this is also about degree. A Polish and Hungarian union shares a similar culture, history and value system, a Nigerian-Hungarian one do not. Re: expat gallery owner promoting modern art. Totally off topic here, but you pushed a button there. In a word, useless. If you post it again, I'll be happy to elaborate. There isn't room here.
Conservatism, by the way, does not mean either insular, static or regressive. Perhaps they don't teach these concepts in English universities, but you have obviously also absorbed the anti conservative propaganda in Hungary of the last 60 years. Which brings me to your language comment. There is the difference between everything that happened before the 20th c., and everything that happened after. Take a guess? It is speed. Communication, transportation, Internet and particularly globalisation have all degraded culture (please don't come back with “oh but they add to them”, I am talking about living culture), the latter aggressively, and changed language at a pace far more rapidly than ever before. Within this century alone, there are estimates that 90% will disappear. The loss of a language is purely sentimental! Dear child, and I take it that you are very young, just out of uni., please at least glance at this: (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GER/is_2000_Spring/ai_61426207) The loss of a language is a loss of a culture, and of ideas and it is the number of cultures and ideas which make the world progress. Back again, to diversity. This is regression, not progression. “Linguist Leanne Hinton believes that even strong national languages might have some worries. The European Union, for instance, is increasingly concerned that English will eventually replace some European languages, since it's the only language that many Europeans have in common.” I take it your Hungarian teacher neglected to tell you that Hungarian is particularly conducive to mathematical (related to theoretical and philosophical) thought. (http://www.kitalaltkozepkor.hu/langeiren_amagyarnyelv.html). See Wigner Jenő's thoughts on this. A computer language has been developed based on it (Hungarian notation). Your statement that this is paramount to not wanting any change (might as well go back to women not voting) is classic liberal (and communist) demagoguery. Brace yourself for a really radical idea, change is not automatically good.

More on multi(anti)culturalism later.

@Adrian D /"would any policy change on Obama's part over this
make him a liar - Gyurcsány style?" He's not a liar he is a *lie.*
The same bunch is running him that ran Bush. Chicago RULEZ
dude! Which is not a good thing… Is your bookie taking bets yet
on how soon he'll be assassinated? "When people fall in to a
lifestyle of welfare dependancy and petty crime in Hungary they
become 'gypsies', just like the travelling Irish did during the
potato blight…" Not so much. Travelling is not the keyword here
*behavior* is. A despicable lifestyle such as the Burakumins' 部落
民 in Japan who are detested because they've been killers,
butchers and executioners just like some Gypsy castes have
been torturers and executioners in our Lebensraum for
centuries. There are executioner *dynasties* such as the Bogárs
like there are musician dynasties such as the Járókas, the
Lakatos or the Rigós. The former is despised the latter revered.
Killer castes that I bet have Thug blood (Mike Dash anyone?)
such as the Bimbos are again hated, naturally, how could they
not be? Beggar castes are also despised because they cripple
children, not just their own but kids they buy or kidnap, to make
them better beggars & I mean *cripple* they amputate limbs,
blind, break bones that they make sure don't heal right to make
the kids all the more pitiful &, they enslave adults too as in
/hirtv.net/filmek/celpont0418.wmv /part IV. "Csicskavilág M.
o.-n" Knowing that most Gypsies feast on diseased, rotting
animal carcasses doesn't make us want to kiss them either. To
make a long story short *I don't care* if it's race, behavior or
heritage. They are the way they are and I won't be their victim no
matter how much you wish that I were.

@Adrian D, continued / "we have had Roma in the UK for a long
time, and have the benefits system in place to support
professional 'breeding', but have not had an explosion in the
Roma population, why is this?" Perhaps because the UK is as
different from Soviet Marxists as Nazi Germany. You say one
thing for propaganda but do something completely different,
usually what you accuse your victims of. And, everyone is kept in
his place, now more than ever, Gypsies being kept well below
even your class system. I mean zoo animals stop having
offspring too. Soviet Marxists on the other hand really embraced
the Gyppos just like Castro's embraced blacks. The result of
which was Cuba going from almost all white to 35% colored
since 1959 & we went… well, to hell. Racism is also as alien to
Hispanics as it is to Hungarians. It is a Saxon concept just like
nationalism is French. "what happens if 'white' Hungarian acts
like a 'white' Hungarian criminal? You mean like *cops* Anon
trained to rob, rape and torture tactfully? "descriptively, I don't
think anyone who hasn't been socialised in England can be
English" :) REALLY? Would you mind expanding on that? I mean
why couldn't your kids learn to be "feral, dangerous, infest the
streets and behave like animals (BBC) /tinyurl.com/5un89w / in
Hungary? "the MIEP woman sneered…" No shit! Did she just
walk up to you and say "hi, your kids are not Hungarian?" How
do you know her anyway? How do you know she is a 'MIÉP
woman?' "In the future our nationalist posters hope for" Yeah,
please tell me what I hope for… You're such a ripacs, Adrian. "if
ex-pats and multi-nationals are held to be responsible for
despoiling Hungary's wealth and debaunching its morality" &
Why should they not be held responsible? "Nem kell olyan Isten
aki nem tud magyarul" You left out the "István király téged
magyar kiván" part which makes it less than the whole truth.
Dodgy, VERY dodgy! "there are good non-racial reasons" Again,
I don't give a flying fuck *why* they are the way they are. I just
won't be their victim. "Viking's claim "Bigger difference between
North and South" parallels Jared Diamond's... claim" who is FYI a
charlatan.

@Tunde /"Even the 'communists' didn't deny that there are lots of
Hungarians without Hungarian citizenship" I beg to differ. I traveled
widely in Transylvania & the Highlands and I was told again and
again how Motherland apparatniks forced interpreters on visiting
shutouts and how they refused to accept that "they still speak
Hungarian." "Diszidensek" (refugees) too were always called "volt
magyarok" who were not even supposed to remember where the
rump country is. "Jesse Jackson was behind him, but I think they
were using him" Or he is using them. Who knows, he is from
Chicago. Farrakhan's endorsement is a bit too weird though
although he's from Chicago too :-( Chicago, vade retro, sunt mala
quae libas, ipse venena bibas :) What a cesspool!

Culture, History - reflect past. Values - now & future. All culture, history good AND bad. Keep good, discard bad. Hungary same Poland. Average Hungarian dislike Poland more than Mozambique. Average Hungarian no opinion Mozambique. Only (maybe) fear dark skin.
Hungarian women share same values with Pako - 15 examples say Yes? (Axeman's sweeping opinion ala visitor,tunde.)
"Conservatism does not mean insular, static, regressive" - Tunde's humble opinion, not fact.
Axeman say conservatism oppose progress & development progress - rest on old "values", history, sometimes bad, and builds wall. Axeman tear down the wall.
Axeman not white. Maybe green. Axeman bring money & positive 'diverse' values to Hungary. Family+, honesty+, civic mindedness+, trust+, moral+, filial piety+, loyalty+, patriotism +/- and Axeman not fuck Hungarian women (or animals) to create mini Hungo-Axeman. Tunde explain how Axeman bad for Hungary?
What purpose Pestiside?- for expat to hear 'conservative' Hungary opinion or Hungarian to hear 'diverse' expat opinion? If Tunde say diversity of language,thought,culture is good, then is good Hungarian Pestiside readers learn diverse opinion to help Hungary.

@FayeFaye /"no culture has ever suffered form cross-
insemination" Whole civilizations were destroyed by "cross-
insemination" such as most empires. Or look at Afghanistan, or
see some of Omarova's films such as Schizo, a. k. a. Шиzа or
The Recruiter. Kazakhstan's become a nation of mongrels like
all the other "stans" thanks to "mixing." Devastated in every
which way.. "problems usually arise from exactly not mixing"
Again, the opposite is true. Social problems and violence *
increase* with diversity. Living standards take a dive,
governments become increasingly oppressive trying to cope with
these issues... "practically every one around me seemed to be
half-something, and they did nothing but benefit from it" Are
you sure it wasn't their their privileged social positions
(accompanied by an acute loss of reality) they actually benefited
from? "American art-dealer… another American lady… went on
to establish the same program at Ludwig" Yeah, Americans are
saints as we all know... "Adrian, should that dark vision of the
future ever come true though, you're children will be in a more
privileged position to emigrate - they probably already have a
much more fluid image of the world than this artificial and rigid
system of borders" Whoa! We can't have Adrian's kids eat the
geese and ducks in Hyde Park or fish in the Serpentine, can we?
It would be too embarrassing if you ask me... &, according to
Adrian they couldn't ever become English anyway. "my
Hungarian friends who would be equally keen on leaving such a
country" such as our Noble prize winning literary giant?
"Oookaaay...I don't get that." I do. Stan is implying that your
parents were apparatchiks and you grew up in some pinko
neverland. And, you are still singing "ezt a nagy eszmét a vész
viharában" although he quoted "Ez a harc lesz a vegső" in
Foreign. Is he wrong?

@Axeman /Is it a Sicilian Message or does "Pestiside staff" simply
prefer crack?

Visitor,

My kids are all 10 and under, - it's possible the eldest might have problems but I think the younger two could socialise seamlessly. I however could never be Hungarian, nor my wife English. The threshold is of course fuzzy, and a matter subject to individual differences.

The ducks and geese are at immediate risk though, especially from the youngest.

@Viking /Does "Scandinavians" include LAPPS? Or those extremely
few German Swedes that survived your post WWII orphanages from
hell and concentration camps? " "Which scientific evidence do you
have for this?" PLENTY.

Visitor,

" No shit! Did she just walk up to you and say "hi, your kids are not Hungarian?" How
do you know her anyway? How do you know she is a 'MIÉP woman?"

She goes to the same callanetics class as my wife. My wife and her friends were talking about their children, the advantage of bilingualism, etc. When the MIÉP lady joined in, we know she's a MIÉP lady because her name and face are on their campaign posters.

@Visiting Hungarian Retard - VHR snort too much paprika, get verbal & mental diarrhoea- Fire ack ack all directions thinking hit sparrow flying in front of face. Japan, Afghi, Kazak, Chicago, Jackson, Ferry Khan all peripheral to issue - very weak examples. VHR using Hubble to see linkage?
VHR - politics novice. Axeman take VHR's bet on Iran? 3 months, no..6months (18 June). Name stakes! No paprika, please. Axeman prefer $100 donation to Hungo children fund in name of Pestiside if lose.

Tunde,

"Conservatism, by the way, does not mean either insular, static or regressive. Perhaps they don't teach these concepts in English universities"

I was taught Aesthetics by Roger Scruton, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Scruton
He did teach me that conservatism of any school does mean intellectual caution. Hope you savour his links to international tobacco.

I think his colleagues respected him enormously at Birkbeck, he was after all a bone fide analytical philosopher but the unfashionableness of his ideas left him short of allies. I was saddened by his departure from British Universities, and his published work has suffered from the loss of the company of his peers - from 'Sexual Desire' - a superb analytical defence of traditional sexual morality, to 'England: an elergy' a sentimental dirge to an England that only existed in the English imagination.

Anon,

two points

" Along with this, I do find it frustrating that a lot of my suggestions are met with resistance and even sometimes resentment simply because I am a foreigner. To be fair, this is not just a Hungarian thing, as I have experienced it just about everywhere I've worked"

Are you sure this is because you are a foreigner? I often feel this, but once I calm down I realise that it may because people are usually resistant to change; or, they have difficulty envisioning what I am proposing through language or cultural differences; Or simply they've seen through to the downside of what I am proposing, think I'm an idiot for not recognising it too, and are too polite to tell me.

The last one would seem to apply to most Hungarians (not my wife), but not to most Russians who were very straight forward in their criticism of western ideas and methods - see Medvedev and Putin.

"I tend to think that compromise can be reached in most cases and that I have seen what I would consider more than just superficial multiculturalism in some places I've been"

Under Islamic law the testimony of a woman has less significance that that of a man. So it is possible that man accused of a crime witnessed only by a women, would be aquitted in an Islamic court but convicted in an English court. The value of evidence is a fundamental part of our concept of justice, I don't see a place for comprise here. Incidently, one of the things I find most troubling about living in Hungary is the lack of trial by jury. But I understand that since I left the UK, things are headed that way there too.

anon600ad: (World Bank apologist and believer in fair trade doesn't quite mesh): These forums are not treatises, but I did try to back up my arguments with links, did anyone bother with those links? I checked the Central Statistics Office's site, but unfortunately they have only a column for EU8 expats, not a breakdown as to the percentage of cretins. Naturally, even though I have given additional information, my generalizations are still sweeping. As I wrote, I have been observing expats in civil, governmental and private company/corp. dealings since 1989. How long have you been here? Not long I gather, if you have to have your girlfriend translates signs and plaques for you. The generalisation I stated holds true for every country in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Russia and the Czech Republic must get the most and the worst). Prague was beautiful, and (I know, a difficult concept) Czech in nature, until the expats, mainly Brits and Americans destroyed it. I will never be able to enjoy that city again, it is Disneyworld. Just look at Pesticide and the stories and events it runs for expats. Not representative of course, but telling nonetheless. Re: your circle. Guilded to Adrian, but anything would be a step up from his vantage point. On a 1-10 scale. Biofuels experts:0. See biofuel controversy. We need Hungarian prime agricultural land for food. Try to find a geothermal expert. Students don't count. Even if they did, they are just as bad. I have dealt with students from the 3 top universities they attend in Budapest and other than the rare Finn, they usually come to Hungary for the cheap education and/or because they couldn't get any further “west:, they learn little about Hungary, study in English, never bother to learn the language. English teachers don't count either, unless they are English lit and language professors. Most barely know English anyway, and are hardly qualified to teach it. UK media experts-0. Not surprised this govt. recruits them, part of our problem. Nurse-6, can she speak Hungarian, or here for the expats? Australian teaching chemistry and maths, here? Considering their ed. system, and Hungary's which, up to 1989, was excellent in those areas, I really question that one. Italian teacher-6. Is he a teacher by profession? Had to smile at the supreme irony of someone from England lecturing Hungarian police on not using the nightstick. Still,you top the list,if you still do that work.

Adrian D: Re: attacking the message and not the messenger, In this case, you are also the message, and your “repost” did more, than not to prove my point. Your original post said skilled workers, to anyone familiar with that segment of soviet history, that normally means the architects, artisans and engineers who went to build a society, but hey I'll work with what you toss back. Finnish American factory workers, who incidentally, like Hungarians had initially been recruited to work in the US in the first wave of capitalist migration and then were stuck there in the depression that always comes with 20.c. capitalism 1) in a severely depressed economy being recruited to work in the USSR, 2) going to a country, specifically to their countrymen in a Finnish speaking Republic which genuinely needed them, as they were told (what came later is another matter) and 3) thinking they were not going to be a burden but an asset (that the USSR propaganda was mostly lies and that problems followed is irrelevant, we are talking about motivation). This, to you, was an “adventure”. These were selfish people, either with no goals or direction in life, or going to exploit the country.

Conservatism and intellectual caution, well at least there is an assumption that conservatives have an intellect. I wonder about liberals.

@Visitor. I knew that when I wrote 'trying to teach kids English on a normal teachers wage' it would be misinterpreted. Quote the whole sentence next time. If you read this in a non-judgemental fashion you can read it as 'trying to live on a normal teachers wage', which is what I meant. Once again your abillity to misquote shines through...Ever considered working as a tabloid hack, The Daily Mail would probably offer you a job.
And your comments about Ethiopians (all done with such an amusing 'African' accent) just show how much of a bigoted idiot you are. Go away and read something about Ethiopia, a 3000yr old kingdom that was Christian before Constantine converted the Roman Empire to that faith. You're such a fan of wiki-links, I'll even supply you with one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia

And yes, Axeman is right. You do go in for endlessly pointless circular debates. Don't reply to this comment, I can't be arsed wasting my time on you.

wow. Today was a fun day.
Adrian. I think the example you gave of the treatment of women is definitely one that can't be compromised on. I also don't like the idea of there not being a jury on some trials. I do take the point of a colleague of mine though who points out how easy it is to manipulate a jury of peers of someone who may be young and uneducated, by forceful, well educated lawyers, and also the problems of finding a 'neutral' jury on high profile cases that have been in the media. He argues that qualified, trained judges are far more likely to operate within the law.
I also take what your point on resistance to change, and perhaps to some degree you're right. I thought about the 'seeing through to the downside' thing, and feel that in some cases perhaps there was the fear of what it might mean to rewrite the training manuals and ultimately what THAT might mean for those who are quite comfortable in the way things are now. I also know that resources are a real problem here, so the downside could well be how to make change and maintain it. I am not actually a police officer myself, rather, my training is in international development, with a focus on crime, education and mental health. Now I know what this might mean to those who jump to conclusions, but let me assure you, I really do try to be as balanced as I can, and flexible enough to change my views should new, compelling information come to light. I concur with your assessment of those who misrepresent opinions and then attack them. Such behaviour doesn't really warrant a response.

One last thing VHR: If you were referring to the 7/7 bomb attacks in London, which I think you were, they happened in 2004, not 2005. They attacked London due to religious convictions, not racial convictions. A sign of culture clash, not race-war. Once again you're showing how fuzzy and inaccurate you are.

Don't worry Tunde, I haven't forgotten about you. But as you have intellect (despite being a bit sanctimonious with it) and seek debate rather than just trying to get a rise out of people (like Visi-twat does) I'll take my time in replying to you. Be patient.

anon600ad. Why thank you for not forgetting me and deigning to debate me. I thought you and Adrian had tied this thread up. I can barely keep up with this blog, and I am in the midst of a project, but even though I am beginning to think these debates are fruitless, to cont on your posts above.
Alcohol use in policemen. That was introduced by the Soviets. Solariums. You neglected to mention tatoos and piercing. Hungarians have got to be number 1 in those categories. I find the willingness of my compatriots to copy everything and anything they see as hip or western depressing, but I think the origins of this behavior are to be found in what happened here post 1945.
Debrecen beautiful? And you say you have traveled around Hungary?
Language and culture. But it is not mutual and it is oppressive, on the anglo, global side. It is the small cultures who are being oppressed. Your example of cricket was a good one. Cricket? I thought bringing golf here was bad enough, but why on earth is there a Hungarian cricket club? The traditional sports of Hungarians (equestrian and fencing) are being underfinanced and almost phased out, why bring in sports from other countries? (I would wager that Indians and Pakistanis also had their own traditional sports before cricket). The US is bringing skatebording and American football to Iraq. Traditional Hungarian childrens games are even being taken over by football, which is sad, because the former was noncompetitive, the latter is, well...
“Multiculturalism can work”. Where is it working? More to the point why must we try it? I mean, we have no choice, but Hungary has enough problems with her relatively small population, her place in Europe as a transit center, and her ethnic tensions. We need to be engaging more with Serbs and Slovaks , not mimicking anglo culture. There is no problem with going somewhere for a bit of adventure, and then returning home with experience and a knowledge of another culture. The problem I have is that expats go somewhere for adventure and then just stay there. They don't plan it, it is just they had no identity or lifegoal beforehand. Particularly UK and US expats seem to simply wander. Since they had no cultural identity beforehand, they have nothing with which to enrich the host country but what is considered “global” culture. As one The Guardian article put it, westerners gave Eastern Europe blue jeans, rock music and AIDS. Thanks a lot.

Apologize for posting so much, but I haven't had time to blog and these piled up
.
Left this out: Even Bob Dent a journalist who also drifted into Hungary and ended up writing several books on the country and now lives here said 2 weeks ago to an interviewer on Kossuth Rádió about why he was still here, that he must have an affinity for Hungary. His reply: “I can make a living here, and I have a house. I couldn't have bought a house in England.” A diplomat he is not, but I think this is typical.

@Visitor. Citizenship- mi a magyar. True, the former regime did everything possible to ignore or even exacerbate the plight of ethnic Hungarians in the surrounding countries, but officially they did not deny that they existed. The present regime pursues similar policy.

The signs of multiculturalism in Hungary are beyond depressing. Hungarian rappers and kids who listen to them, imitating black sign language and attitude, graffiti all over the place, restaurants that used to sell real food are being replaced by crappy fast food joints, growing number of foreign-owned supermarkets switching from traditional Hungarian (good) food to mass-produced garbage from the big food-multies, ATV for the dumb believer type, MTV for ADD sufferers, idiotic "reality" and game show copies, Blikk, and so on. I miss Hungary, it used to be such a nice place.

@Visitor
"Stan is implying that your
parents were apparatchiks and you grew up in some pinko neverland. Is he wrong?"
I'm really trying to avoid these threads but since you made a personal remark...You know what? I wrote a very long and detailed reply, one that would have defied the internationally held belief that you can only truly swear in Hungarian. Then exhibiting a tremendous amount of self-restraint I decided you're not going to drag me into your murky underworld and deleted it...please don't ever refer or reply to me, ever again.

Tunde,

"Your original post said skilled workers"

My original post said " 'skilled' workers "- check it out.

"This, to you, was an “adventure”."

No, this to me was " unemployment ", but I didn't specify.

These look like honest mistakes on your part, so thank you for being less wild in your mis- representation of my views.

As for teachers, you are right to be critical of the role of native langauge teachers - like me. The educational culture of our host countries is often very different to Hungary's and this causes confusion for most of my students. Although, my cleverest students can come to understand and exploit this. The significant benefit of me teaching here is to my colleagues, I can expedite their preparation time. The majority of English language teaching (ELT) materials in use in Hungary are British, and their writers often take for granted what Hungarians might find totally mysterious. Whether this is enough to justify my salary, I don't know. Interestingly, my job is a sinecure in that bilingual courses require so many lessons to be given by a native speaker. How do you feel about the global industry of ELT materials and bilingual courses - which remain popular in Hungary?

Anon,

"there was the fear of what it might mean to rewrite the training manuals and ultimately what THAT might mean for those who are quite comfortable in the way things are now"

I am curious to know what the percieved problems are with Hungarian policing: one of the reasons I am comfortable here is that there seems to be much less crime, though perception of crime seems much higher. Obviously, policing has played a role in this. I've even been impressed with the policing of the recent riots, which are a new experience for the Hungarian police. I've not seen any of the medieval warfare techniques of riot control that are so common in the UK - Parliament square, Poll tax demo, coalminer strikes, Northern Ireland, race riots - the injury figures must be much lower....

Adrian D: Totally different wavelength we are on here. "Your original post said skilled workers" My original post said " 'skilled' workers "- check it out.
I did, which is why I wrote this. Again, skilled workers do not bring to mind automatically factory workers but tradesmen, i. e. those who have skills to offer, and the group I described.
Unemployment. As I wrote, those Finns were in dire straits and willing to go to the USSR for work, not exactly their best friend historically, having been recruited (i. e. asked to come), plus they were going to a Finnish speaking republic, or going to their brethren. The average UK or US here is either working for a multinational or a college educated person, (re: no skills) not desperate to feed their families as the Finnish Americans were in the American depression who are just drifting (no one asked them to come here), going to country to country in the region, and eventually to what they know of as where Zsa Zsa Gabor came from. You honestly think the two are comparable?

@Tunde - "...that conservatives have an intellect. I wonder about liberals". Axeman wonder about Tunde. Tunde think liberal no brains, why Tunde do keyboard battlecry.
Eugene ask many, many Checkie. Czechies say Prague still beautiful, yes....even without Tunde:(
".....because Hungary education is cheap"- yes, also cheap quality. Hungary competitiveness---> productivity #62. Botswana, Panama, Malaysia, Mauritius, Indonesia, India, Jordan, Barbados, Puerto Rico, Brunei, Oman, Tunisia, ...etc etc all higher. Why? http://www.weforum.org/pdf/GCR08/GCR08.pdf.
Tunde looking expat since 1989, but maybe Tunde use telescope, maybe not understand. Expat, maybe sometimes even students bring higher skills than what here available. Zum Beispiel, Axewoman Evgeniya every year kick Hungarian professors butt in teaching effectiveness and student ranking. Hungary professor remove hat and bow for Evgeniya - Evgeniya A1 in school, but NO professor experience until Hungary. Pachamu? Maybe Adrian friend comme si, comme ca (excuse French- but you comprend, nem?). Tunde live ancient times. Australia better better universities, also R & D quality, chemic, mathematic. Australia 17 unis, Hungary 3 unis. http://www.arwu.org/rank/2007/ranking2007.htm
Axeman looking CSIRO & other labs, also see Hungary labs. Non contest.
Tunde claim "in the depression that 'always' comes with 20.c. capitalism". Always? Tunde sly, use Hungarian revolving door. Tunde not learn economic history eg How is relevant for any of 12 countries above.
Tunde & Hungie Retard throw plenty plenty knives in periphery and tangent. Typical of Soviet style education and immediately after. Many, many knives, but no aim & stick on wrong dartboard or wall. Hence, Axeman swing,swing axe, sometimes miss:( Sorry. Tunde look 1 target, focus, aim, and throw hard. Maybe Axeman English learn quickly +++. Tunde last post +++, aber leider, 1 anecdote doesn't an argument make.
Axeman very very like Pestiside, also very very like some Hungarians (not VHRetard!) Pestiside humour channel for expat, not Brittanica or Colosseum. Unlax, Tunde have a Genmai Cha, cheesecake or strudel and :)

Axie big chief in homeland africa. He speaks tribal english. Why not post in native language (if any) would not make difference.

Braindamaged Stankkk not understand native tongue. Green is the colour, not black.

AdrianD

I offered you that as an attempt to friendship,now I say FUCK YOU,You shit stirring little petty minded cunt !!

Tunde,

for the difference between " skilled " and " 'skilled' " see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks#Irony

This is something my cleverer students should know about, the use of irony in British English. Similarly, the Nazi-anti-smoking link, i.e. I don't think you're a Nazi.
Stan, however...

You were the one who introduced domestic employment as a motivation for moving to Hungary " they are out for some kind of adventure, or they can't get a job at home." I was just agreeing with you. I know it can be hard to follow my arguments with all that 'irony' going on, but you really should try to follow your own.

Any chance of more observatons on "elite gypsies", pretty please.

Comment 136 obviously me, no irony intended.

Ricsi,

you're not yourself.

Stan,

"He speaks tribal english"

good try, but Axeman wouldn't use the 3rd person singular marker so "He speak tribal English".

In the absence of any ex-pats vigourously defending their enrichment of Hungary, perhaps the new challenge should be to be impersonate Axeman.

@Adrian D - Axeman give simple example of enriching Hungary via Axewoman's contribution, and also decapitate Tunde's claim of "cretin" expats. Axeman wait patient(4 days) for Retard's definition. Axeman not go crazy like Faye & Dema with Retard's comments.

AdrianD

Actually I am very much myself, your pathetic shit stirring comments of Nov13th were not read until now,but they just proved that you are a typical big key board hero,shit scared of a real life confrontation.
Your cheap shot at attacking the likes of HP and myself suggest you are the typical loud mouth anglo-saxon hypocrite( thank god I am only half )big in mouth but lacking in action...
I tried to talk/meet/share views and you run away under a fog of insults --you Sir are a COWARD.

Axeman,

I hope I don't have to wait four days for your next post, V. tends to post weekly.

"Typical of Soviet style education and immediately after"

I have been struck while reading recent ethnographic studies of Russian classrooms, how similar they are to what goes on in Hungarian classrooms. Apparently "The Voice of the Martians", George Marx, 2001 this wasn't going on during the golden age of Hungarian Education, before WWII, so maybe Hungary's educational culture was seriously damaged by Soviet style 'education'. Having said that, the collapse in standard due to MTV, etc. (Stan's comment 127) I've directly witnessed.

I am fairly sure that V. and Tunde have both spent significant chunks of their education in anglophone environments, and their posting discourses in fact derive from models of English literacy, ( Yes V. I know what I said elsewhere, but I can't really get a handle on you, perhaps because I don't speak Russian, Japanese etc.) but I don't think their styles are typical of soviet style education, neither of them are sitting around waiting to be told what to think - cf the majority of my students.

Carry my regards to Mrs Axeman, I wish I could teach.

Ricsi,

I still think you are manipulative and dishonest, but I am now disappointed to discover that you are also not a gentleman.

Given the violence of your language, I am right to be a coward.

I will not be C'ing U Next Tuesday!!!

@Adrian - Axeman offtrack. VHR not politics novice...but still mid-east novice. Iran bet stands.
Axeman is 90% know who is Retard. Now understand pourquoi many, many peripheral, symbolic reference, and why expat difficult to place Retard. Axeman know 2 similar type in Hungary, with anglo-language learnings, but hungo-national socialist brainwashings - very unusual family mix. Retard have much personal insight re Hungaria, apparatchik, history, D209 etc ...but little respect. If Axeman correct, please bow Mrs Visitor.
Axeman think is interesting see Retard have coffee morning with Stankkk, Ricsi, Hot P. Make very interesting reality movie ala Death and Maiden script.

Adrian D.: Ok, didn't notice the quotation marks the first time around. As I said most think of the truly skilled workers when discussing this period. It didn't occur to me that you were qualifying the workers, particularly as I still can't see the comparison. I am familiar with irony, and you really do not have to give me Collins, Oxford or wiki quotes, unless the issue is a term or meaning. I notice that you do this only with Hungarian posters, even given the at times imperfect English of (even angloanglo) expats on this blog. As you have now correctly guessed, I was educated for the most part in the Anglosphere, and although I assume that you have now taken courses which qualify you to teach English, I take it that does not mean you have an advanced degree in it. Don't remember the posts, or posters, but I have seen both Ricsi's and Visitor's English corrected as a way to get a dig at them, and their English is obviously very good. I remember a Hungarian arguing a point with an American once and the American argued back and then added, as a dig, “and your English is awful”. “Ironic” considering the former spoke 5 languages and the latter spoke one.
You are right about Hungarian education being severely damaged by the Soviet model. It had some redeeming qualities though, and what good was left in both is being destroyed by the neolibglobal model.
And you were not agreeing with me at all, nor was I misrepresenting your views. You were comparing workers who went to the USSR to expats coming here and, even given the motivation being unemployment, as I explained in detail in the post above, there is unemployment and there is unemployment, and if you think being an unemployed expat tooling around Europe is comparable to being an unemployed factory worker during the American depression preparing for a ship journey to the USSR, we are on really loose ground.
Gypsy elite. I assume by that you mean the whole issue, assimilation and whatnot. That will take triple posting, but I will address it.
Riot control: People lost eyes and fingers during the demonstrations of 2006. If an MP taking part in an originally peaceful gathering of his party followers were forced to the ground and kicked by the police in the UK, and there was video footage of it, what would be the reaction? Would it be a ruling coalition partner making a joke out of it?

Tunde,

"there is unemployment and there is unemployment".

I dropped out out college in 1992, with several thousand pounds debt. A recession was well under way in the UK. I went back to my pre-college employer - the tobacco multinational - and begged them to give me a job, in March '93 I was sent to Budapest. The system changed of '89 changed my life.

Tunde
Thanks for your interesting comments, as for my English,I often make simple errors when typing fast on my computer as I am not an expert typist and I am not looking for grammatical perfection when responding in a forum. Anybody who likes to find fault is usually trying to score cheap points in his own childish way as you rightly point out.
AdrianD
I never said I was a Gentleman ! but I did make an offer that you made fun of on the forum for some childish reason,thus proving my point about you.

Ricsi,

"I never said I was a Gentleman". A gentleman wouldn't, but your prose told me you were. Glad to see you have recovered your composure.

Re. Adrian D.: "Who will take up Visitor's challenge" No one,
apparently... sigh.. Let me rephrase: I am looking for at least 3
expats who are equivalent to Steve Udvar-Hazy, Charlie Simonyi
and such vs. the various hacks with Exxon Mobil, miscellaneous
tobacco companies, extraordinary rendition, AVO... Jungle
bunnies, dr. Nelson & other crooks, freaks & perverts. Someone?
Anyone? No one?
@Adrian D /"I don't see why ex-pats need to do more than
Hungarians to justify our existence here" Do you go to
someone's home and tell him that you have just as much right to
be there than he does? NO, you don't, because it's _his home not
yours. Just like Hungary is OUR home_land & not yours, which is
why you need to do a hell of a lot more to justify your existence
here than we do. "Mongoloid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? post-
christian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?" WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING ADRIAN? "My
objections to Racism are that it is opposed to the principle of
equality before the law, and that it restricts/prohibits
assimilation" Equality before the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? Are kidding?
And, did you not say that you could never be Hungarian or your
wife English? How is racism involved in that? how about BRITISH
btw? Could your wife become *British?* What were George Mikes
or Koestler? "neither of them are sitting around waiting to be
told what to think - cf the majority of my students" They are
waiting to be told what *you want to hear* which is not the
same... &, they are not telling you what they think because they
don't trust you.

@anon /"Whether you like his politics or not, surely we could all
agree that Obama is a step up from Bush. Couldn't we?" Why would
switching from a white necon puppet to a black one be a "step up?
" Cui bono? &, What does a president matter anyway? Isn't he just
one man doing what he is told? "I'm sure even local Hungarians
must admit, bureaucratic fatigue is a killer…" Occupation is always
a killer administered by killers. But, you of all people should know
that

@anon /"my training is in international development, with a focus
on crime, education and mental health" Hey, I found the
inspiration/ whitehouse.org/news/2004/051504.asp /for your
training manuals!

Adrian D.: If we were facing each other, I think we'd be shouting at this point. You must be joking. Ever see a soup line? In the depression people who couldn't get into the soup line were eating rats. Were you eating rats when you were unemployed? In addition, you didn't come here for a job, you went to a multinational, and they sent you here, so although I think multinationals are slime, you weren't even in the particular category of expat we were discussing. “I know it can be hard to follow my arguments with all that 'irony' going on, but you really should try to follow your own.” Ditto. Along the same line, I did not ask if you thought I was a nazi, I asked what was the point in posting the link. I was talking of the tobacco industry creating the related diseases, and you obviously googled “ban on tobacco”, thinking that was my point. It wasn't.
Incidentally, want to know what university educated Hungarians, unemployed here at home, are doing in the UK at the moment? They are waiting tables and babysitting. An excellent film was made on the storyline of a Georgian doctor doing construction in Paris (Julie Bertuccelli's “Since Otar left”.)
1989 changed my life too, I naively thought I would get Hungary back, now I am losing it for good.
On reflection, I think Stalin had it right after all. Granted he had the wrong target, but labour camps for foreigners is beginning to sound better all the time.

@FayeFaye /"You know what?" I do. Stan was right…

@Demagogue /"If you were referring to the 7/7 bomb attacks in
London, which I think you were, they happened in 2004, not 2005"
Try Google... ;) "They attacked London due to religious convictions,
not racial convictions" O rly? Which bomber was WHITE? Where were
you BTW in 2005? Thailand, maybe? Let me guess what attracted
you to Hungary a. k. a. the "Thailand of Europe" in the first place.
&, you are teaching … How lovely!

yu! ax bilong man! maski long planti toktok! yu pinisim stori nau!
sly plantiplanti swingswing! yu bagarap! dis smol swain i bin go fo
maket! ax bilong man go fo liklik haus! kam bek visitor pes solap!

@Visitor - No one. Not so quickly, visitor. You just reverted with your definition.
Let's not issue a challenge, and then Run Like Hell.
I will try to take up your challenge, beginning first with your definition. Once we agree on a common definition, then perhaps, we can go explore further.

@Ricsi: I'm with you on your comment on forums, typos, etc. To be fair to Adrian, I read that comment you found objectionable, and I don't think he was poking fun, but instead complimenting you.
@Stan. MTV for ADD sufferers. Exactly! It creates them! Ever watch Feszti körkép? I would have to have antiADS drugs to watch that again. And how about Magyar Rádió?

Visitor,

It never rains but it pours. So to pick out one of the good points you make in your last post to me.

"They are waiting to be told what *you want to hear* which is not the same... &,

Agreed, and your version is a more accurate description of what is going on, I got carried along by my own rhetoric. But the important contrast for me is that post-soviet Hungarian secondary education is mostly a matter or recital, whereas my English secondary education was very much a matter of teaching me to think for myself. Without passing a value judgement on either, it's problematic for me because ELT materials based on the communicative approach assume that students will want to express their own thoughts.

What I have read about pre-soviet secondary education in Hungary (the system which produced those world beating Martians) suggests that that system also aimed to teach people how to think for themselves. Doesn't the presence of ex-pat teachers offer Hungary an opportunity to reconnect with a tradition in which it excelled in the past? Simonyi and Udvar-Házy received significant chunks of their education in the US.

"they are not telling you what they think because they don't trust you."

Since you don't know me, nor my students, this statement can only be the result of a generalisation. What is this generalisation? Do they not trust me because I'm a teacher, because I'm a foreigner or because I'm a foreign teacher?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/20/housing-communities-gypsies

@Visitor - You seem to have missed something here (well, quite a few, but lets not worry about that now). While we were anxiously waiting for your definition of "contribution", it appears that you have decided instead to define "expats" by giving names such Simonyi and Udvar Hazy, without really explaining, and then fudging the definition of contribution to "equivalent of what they did" leaving us to presume what you mean.
Anyway since you brought up the definition of "expats" without explaining, perhaps, we can agree on some of the characteristics, and then try to meet your challenge on 'contribution" in Time.
So, if we understand you correctly, an 'expat' is someone who has the following 3 characteristics:
i. a person who goes to and does his higher education in foreign country for several years,
ii. obtains a job there, and by doing some private entrepreneurial activity makes some money
iii. then remains permanently in that foreign country.
I am not sure about the other readers, but I have been thinking hard, and I really cant think of anyone I know who would qualify as an 'expat' by your definition.
Visitor, do you know anyone in Hungary who meets this definition of an expat?

Tunde,

"In the depression people who couldn't get into the soup line were eating rats"

So what you meant to write was 'there is unemployment and there is starvation'. I agree, I've never had to eat rats. However, there is nothing in Applebaum's story of the Finnish Americans to suggest they were eating rats in America either. Since they were complaining that the conditions in the Soviet Union were not as good as those they left in America, can I assume their life in America hadn't got to the rat eating stage before they left?

Visitor,

"Do you go to someone's home and tell him that you have just as much right to be there than he does? NO, you don't, because it's _his home not
yours. Just like Hungary is OUR home_land & not yours,"

When I skimmed over this one I thought it was quite interesting - unfortunately after thinking about it, I can't find the necessary logical link between "home" - the place where you live in, especially with your family - and "homeland" - the country where you were born.

Although Hungarians share a homeland, they don't share each other's homes. So there is no difference between me going to Béla's home or Józsi's going to Béla's home: neither of us have the right to be there.

You could still argue that Józsi has the right to live in his homeland and I don't - straightforwardly by a commitment to universal serfdom but that seems a little extreme even by your lights.

But you can't argue it through this analogy, probably inspired by an equivocation of "haza". Want to give it another bash, I'm still curious about this one.

Adrian,
Let's go with "homeland" instead of "home" now.
If you're a born Hungarian, you have the right to live in Hungary.
If you're an immigrant, you have to earn the right. You get citizenship from the state and you contribute something to society, make friends, assimilate, etc. Earning the right is not easy, and as long as you speak with an accent, you may never be fully acepted by all the locals.
I know this, because I've been through it myself. Of course the USA is somewhat different, it's a country built by immigrants, so you don't feel so out of place there. You stick out more in the nation states of Europe. When I decided that it's time for me to leave Hungary, the only obvious choice was the USA, (or maybe Australia or Canada). In my opinion France is for the French, Germany is for Germans, and so on. They probably agree with me on this one. America 20 years ago was for everyone. Not any more.

Stan,
If it is not too personal a question, could you tell me why you left Hungary for the USA? This really is a genuine question and I'm not trying to stir you up.
(one of the other projects I'm working on is a research project about trans-migration)

@Visitwat. I promised myself not to get wound up by your drivel but I can't help it, you've touched a nerve. No, I was in London in 2004, working in Tower Hamlets (teaching English to immigrants) so I was there during the bomb attacks. I lived in Asia in 2002/2003, or can't you read my previous posts properly.

And if you have to use shit like that to score points off people you're really low. Some of us were there. Some of us escaped being blown up by minutes because we got an earlier bus.

PS. Your impression of a Thai 'mi luv u long time' bar-girl (or is it a lady-boy) seems to suggest that you have much experience of fucking Thai's in Thailand. Are you one of the many 'farang' who have used and abused the Thai's hospitality? I know I'm not (I don't find little Orientals attractive, preferring my woman to be tall and Afro or Euro looking).

@Demagogue - Of course he knows the inside of a whorehouse. Where do you think Visitor was brought up? His mother was really popular with all the 'visitors'. Even named her kid after them. Who's your daddy, visitor?
ps. Visitor, do you need Stan to explain what I'm implying?

Stan,

"Earning the right is not easy, and as long as you speak with an accent, you may never be fully acepted by all the locals."

Again, having the right to residence and being accepted by the locals are different things. I have had always had the right to residence and getting it isn't too difficult. Evidence of employment, or means of economic support, clean criminal and health records, and citizenship of a state (or superstate) which has Hungary an immigration treaty with - initially for me the UK, now the EU.

However, gaining the acceptence of SOME of the locals is proving more difficult, (The MIEP lady who even seems the question the right of my children to stay in their homeland, Tunde, Visitor, maybe you - not sure of your position here, Stan.

My original question about justifying our existence here is really to do with the acceptance of these locals, why should an expat be expected to do anything more than a Hungarian is expected to do as a condition of acceptance. In your post I don't see that you are asking anything more. It that the case?

There's an interesting report on multiculturalism on BBC4 that can be listened to online, "Tim Whewell reports from the city of Leicester, which in the next few years is predicted to become Europe's first 'plural city', where no one ethnic group is in a majority."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fhr72/Our_First_Plural_City/

Test

"I moved to Kent to get away from mass immigration only to find myself surrounded by East Europeans. The BNP have got my vote."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/11/23/do2304.xml

Looks like I'm between a rock and a hard place.

PS Is that you, Stan(Expat), or yet another Stan?

No Signs of Life, visitor?
C'mon, you can define 'expat' and 'contribute' better than a 5 year old. Surely cant be dropping challenges to us (intellectually and morally bankrupt foreigners) without even being able to give 3 characteristics for a definition.
We don't wanna be talking Apples and Oranges here.

@Adrian D. /"post-soviet Hungarian secondary education is
mostly a matter or recital, whereas my English secondary
education was very much a matter of teaching me to think for
myself." Toro... The Soviets ruled by open force & didn't care if
you believed or _internalized what you were "taught." If you
didn't do as you were expected &/or required they hurt you.
Anglos obfuscate raw power and prefer to rule by deceit or
brainwash & require that people they know to be idiots
internalize the doctrines they know to be untrue (Mencken)
"What I have read about pre-soviet secondary education in
Hungary (the system which produced those world beating
Martians) suggests that that system also aimed to teach people
how to think for themselves." Catholic schools worked like
steroids on Ashkenazi minds in Hungary. Follow it up by
American opportunity & ooh la la! We gave you Grófs (Groves),
Tellers, Szilards & Neumanns which is why their fanatical hatred
of the Church and their never ending efforts to destroy it
confound me. "Doesn't the presence of ex-pat teachers offer
Hungary an opportunity to reconnect with a tradition in which it
excelled in the past?" In theory perhaps, but look at the
poisonous trash you are peddling: Anne Applebaum, Michael
Burleigh, Deborah Lipstadt et al. Pardon me while I throw up! We
don't need you, we need our catholic schools back! 'they don't
trust you' "Since you don't know me, ...generalisation" "Do they
not trust me because I'm a teacher, because I'm a foreigner or
because I'm a foreign teacher?" a) You don't know that I don't
know you b) You're not a teacher you're an accountant which is
probably why the Catholic school let you go & not because you
are liberal like you implied c) you told me your students don't
tell you what they think i. e. don't trust you. Why not? _That I
don't know. It could be all of the above or none. They could be
wise to the liberal trash you are spouting like a broken record
facts not at all disturbing you… or they may just sense it's not
conducive to their survival or getting ahead to trust you. Who
knows. Hot paprika & Ricsi feel you abused their trust too and
Bela whoever he is doesn't want to speak to you & I wonder
why... What do *you* think?

@Adrian D. continued / "I can't find the necessary logical link
between "home" - the place where you live in, especially with
your family - and "homeland" - the country where you were
born." No shit! Let me go slow for you then. You're in _your
room in _your home. Your kid will knock (will she?:) on your
door before she can go in because it's _your room. *Neighbors*
can't enter your home unless someone from your household
_allows them in. (Unless they break in which is a *crime*)
Similarly, your _neighborhood is in your home town which is in
your country (home country?) which is in Europe, and so forth.
You follow? "even by your lights" Again, please tell me what my
"lights" are… "this analogy, probably inspired by an equivocation
of 'haza'" VERY GOOD! A+ for Adrian! Haza & háza are indeed
related! "gaining the acceptence of SOME of the locals…" a)
Some locals don't matter… b) we said "right" not "acceptance"
which, again, is not the same… c) you will never get 100%
acceptance anywhere and Hungarians don't even accept each
other. "The MIEP lady who even seems the question the right of
my children to stay in their homeland" Didn't she say *they are
not Hungarian?* which (again, sigh) is not the right to _stay in
Hungary, is it? "Tunde, Visitor, maybe you" Adrian Twist… &,
what are you bellyaching about the "MIÉP lady" anyway. Haven't
you said about *your own spouse* that she will never be
English? How is that different from what the "MIÉP lady" said?

"Demagogue: Test... #171 Adrian D.: ...Is that you, Stan(Expat)… ?"
Did Demagogue get zapped? :-)))

@FayeFaye /Interesting is right... Then we exit the pipe dream
and see what nouveau Limeyland /
inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/innercity / _really looks
like to 99% of everyone vs. Tim's phony poison laid on us in a
nasal, fag accent including the shithole / tinyurl.com/5tyos4 /
our own Demagogue hails from. Who benefits from such
nightmares &, who is destroyed by them?
@Demagogue /VisiTWAT? How juvenile. "preferring my woman
to be tall and Afro…" Like so?
/ tinyurl.com/5qemox / You want to be the daddy of the next
POTUS, don't you?
@Axhole /From broken English to native fluency in little more
than 24 hours! Wow! I am IMPRESSED! You took an English
lesson from Adrian, didn't you?
@not… _human? /"Who's your daddy, visitor?" Tsk-tsk, does yo
mama know about your filthy mouth, vermin? I mean your
sister… slap. Your mother. Slap. Your sister. Slap. Your mother.
Slap. Your mother AND sister! ( Does your RABBI know? Solap ;)

@VHR - aahhh. As Waters said, you're Coming Back to Life. We thought you'd left for the Dark Side of the Moon, or gone Comfortably Numb.
"...native fluency ..Wow! I am IMPRESSED!"
You're impressed? I'm not. I'm still waiting for your definition of expat & contribution. Your brain twined up in a ball again?
A good professor once said, "examples enhance a definition, but are not a substitute for a definition. People who cannot explain, and give examples instead, don't know what they're talking about, because they haven't thought about the subject sufficiently". Consequence of an acquired Soviet mindset...or a traditional Hungarian education? Who knows? We'll just leave it to the 50 000 "foreigners" here untangle it, and to bring you up to Botswana, Tunisia, and Mauritius standards of productivity and competence, maybe even English. Adrian, thanks for that English lesson;) Axeman not jungleman more. I say foreigners, since we haven't yet established that they are indeed'expats' - like the other 1 999 998 Hungarians in the US.
Now, visitor, why do you try again with that definition?
Btw, I just learned that Hungarian law allows you to legally repeat exams up to 9 times.
Please don't use up your limit;)

Visitor,

"Catholic schools worked like steroids on Ashkenazi minds in Hungary....We gave you Grófs (Groves), Tellers, Szilards & Neumanns which is why their fanatical hatred of the Church and their never ending efforts to destroy it confound me"

Teller Ede, Minta Gimnázium, secular
Szliard Leo, Kemény Zsigmond Realgimnázium, secular
Neuman János, Fasori Lutheran gimnázium, Lutheran
Gróf András, Madach Gimnázium, Roman Catholic!!!

One out of four. My impression is that Calvinism has been more important in the development of education in Hungary. It certainly links Hungary into the Anglosphere.

I'm curious though, how did Andy Grove make never ending efforts to destroy the Roman Catholic church. Should I switch to an AMD processor?

9 times!!! NO SHIT. Explains visitor, stan and all the duds in Hungary

Not a Visitor,
The 9 times rule is necessary to help blacks, gypsies and mental midgets, like yourself. If you ever decide to finish elementary school, this is your big chance.

@Genius - congratulations!
Q. What is a Hungarian genius?
A. When he only takes an exam 8 times.

@Adrian D.: /"One out of four?" What happened to your math
skills? Have we only had 4 "Jews" in Hungary? The "Jewish" elite
invariably chose the Piarists for their kids secondary education
as did the Tellers, only we had had an affirmative action
program in place at the time Ede would have enrolled, so he
started gimnázium at m. kir. Középiskolai Tanárképző's
legendary "Minta" that was part of Pázmány Péter University, a
Jesuit institution at the time. Neuman received his _Ph.D. at
Pázmány. Szilárd was the exception that proved the rule, mainly
because he wasn't part of the "Jewish" elite that looked down on
the "Polishe." Top apparatchiks, *politburo members* such as
the culture czar Aczél were raised in Catholic institutions, in his
case a Salesian orphanage. Even during the darkest years of the
Soviet occupation top quislings' offspring were educated by the
Franciscans in Pannonhalma. "My impression is that Calvinism
has been more important in the development of education in
Hungary. It certainly links Hungary into the Anglosphere." Your
impression is as wrong as two boys fucking. "I'm curious
though, how did Andy Grove make never ending efforts to
destroy the Roman Catholic church. Should I switch to an AMD
processor?" Don't pretend you misunderstood. I am talking
about the internment, torture and murder of thousands of
priests, the destruction of Catholic churches, schools and other
institutions, *globally*, assassination of the Pope, assassination
of bishops and priests, the pedophile campaign, etc. Or have
you missed all that?

Wow - there are some really crazy people here!

Visitor,

"[the] legendary "Minta" that was part of Pázmány Péter University, a Jesuit institution at the time."

Could you cite a source for the above, because I have read that Teller went to the Minta precisely because it was secular:

"In the spring qf 1918 Teller's parents had to decide where he would go for his high school education. The decision of Edward's parents was made after rejecting two other possibilities. The first was the school operated by the Catholic Piarist Order, but those who attended were expected to turn Christians. The second possibility was the Lutheran Gymnasium, which educated Eugene Wigner and John von Neumann among its students. Finally the parents agreed that the Minta was a better choice for Edward."

Marx, G. "The voice of the Martians", Akadémiai Kiadó, 2001, pg 160.

Even though they were still insisting on orthodoxy in 1918, you're right to highlight the role of the Piarists, of the RC orders involved in Hungarian education they were "best prepared of all to accomodate the rationalism of the Enlightenment" (A cultural history of Hungary, Volume 1, pg 275) At a time when when "there were empty complaints about the empty verbalism of Jesuit tuition and the absense from the curriculum of natural sciences and a more secular outlook" (ibid pg 275).

However, of far more importance to the development of science teaching in Hungary were 18th century Calvinist figures such György Maróthi or István Hatvani "whom his adversaries accused of sorcery because of his electrostatic experiments" (ibid, pg 279).

@Adrian D. /"Could you cite a source for the above…" Certainly:
GOOGLE. "Minta" was a predecessor of Trefort that has been a
part of ELTE known as Magyar Királyi Pázmány Péter
Tudományegyetem before 1950. Not to be confused with
Pázmány Péter _Katolikus Egyetem which is a more recent
creation. "but those who attended were expected to turn
Christians," etc. Whatever someone called Marx says must be
true, right? Wrong. The teaching fathers may have HOPED that
some of their students will see the light but they never even
stated that. ANYONE was accepted until some of our best
Catholic (please don't call them "RC") schools had more zsidózó
kazár students than Christians _including Catholics.
"Even though they were still insisting on orthodoxy in 1918"
Aren't you confusing Catholic schools with Kun's Soviet?
"absense from the [Jesuit] curriculum of natural sciences" Are
joking? "18th century Calvinist figures... whom his adversaries
accused of sorcery because of his electrostatic experiments" Who
were "his adversaries?" and what do they have to do with our
"Martians" for Pete's sake?
Dubious /Crazy? Is this the best you can do, chaver? How
pitiful. What happened to your superior intellect?

Visitor,

"Whatever someone called Marx says must be
true, right? Wrong."

Teller Ede wrote an epilogue for Marx's book which the quotation was taken from. I presume he checked/agreed with the parts that narrated his own educational history.

" Not to be confused with Pázmány Péter _Katolikus Egyetem which is a more recent creation."

So are you back-tracking, or still claiming the Minta was a catholic institution?

"what do they have to do with our "Martians" for Pete's sake"

The Martians' contributions to world culture were in the natural sciences. Roman Catholicism broke with the natural sciences with Galileo. Apart from the aforementioned Piarists, if a RC institution supported the natural sciences it was to compete (badly) with Calvinist/secular institutions like Göttingen/Harvard/Cambidge (the anglosphere).

@Adrian D. /"I presume he checked/agreed with the parts that
narrated his own educational history" I don't think he wrote the
epilogue or checked anything. By the time Marx's propaganda
piece glorifying "Jewish genius" was published Teller was as
senile as he looked and almost dead. But even if he would have
agreed that the sun rises in the west, it wouldn't have made it
true. The fact that Catholic schools have always accepted anyone
without strings attached such as the requirement of conversion
can be easily checked. They also remain the best schools for
most of us who cannot afford € 30,000 per year tuitions at elite
schools. "" Not to be confused with Pázmány Péter _Katolikus
Egyetem which is a more recent creation."So are you back-
tracking, or still claiming the Minta was a catholic institution?"
You didn't read what I wrote carefully.. Again, the *original*
Pázmány became ELTE in 1950. The *current* Pázmány is a
different institution, NOT the original Pázmány's successor,
which is ELTE. "Roman Catholicism broke with the natural
sciences with Galileo" Which is a crock. Galileo was an arrogant
asshole who kept messing with the Church that finally had no
choice but put him in his place. The facts of his trial have been
distorted for political reasons. His science was *approved* by
the Church. His "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World
Systems" was published with formal authorization from the
Inquisition and papal permission in 1632, as was Copernicus'
work who first proposed "Galileo's ideas." Both remained devout
Catholics by the way as long as they lived. As was Louis Pasteur,
Alexander Fleming, Marie Curie or Georges Lemaître who first
proposed the Big Bang theory. Pope Benedict then Cardinal
Ratzinger predicted the current financial crisis in his "Market
Economy and Ethics" in 1985. The man who _embodies natural
sciences is in fact an "RC" called Leonardo da Vinci.

@Adrian D. continued /The Church didn't brake with natural
sciences it "broke" with slave traders, *big business* &
corporations who with their enourmous wealth have waged war on
the Church ever since. All the top universities in the Anglosphere
were founded by pirates and/or slave traders. Another fact that you
can easily check. "Apart from the aforementioned Piarists, if a RC
institution supported the natural sciences it was to compete (badly)
with Calvinist/secular institutions like Göttingen/Harvard/
Cambidge (the anglosphere)" :) Göttingen FYI is NOT part of the
Anglosphere, nor is Hungary. Not yet, thank God.

Visitor,

"By the time Marx's propaganda piece glorifying "Jewish genius" was published Teller was as senile as he looked and almost dead."

I think both Marx and Teller were more interested in glorifying Hungarian rather than Jewish genius. Marx has chapters on Békésy, Szent-Györgyi, and Bay. There is nothing in Marx's text to suggest that these Martians were Jewish (though, you can probably put me straight on this one). This approach can be contrasted with Kati Marton's rehash of Marx's work - "The great escape: nine Jews who fled Hitler and changed the world" or Hargittai Istvan's "Az öt világformáló marslakó" (even though I agree with his thesis Kármán, Szilárd, Wigner, Neumann, and Teller were all of Jewish descent). Likewise in his epilogue Teller emphasises that "not all the Martians left Hungary" presumably the ones that had nothing to fear from Naziism (including Jews) or Communism.

Still not clear about the minta, RC or not?

Visitor,

"His "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World
Systems" was published with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission in 1632."

Yeah, the problems set in when someone in the Vatican got round to reading it.

"With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.
He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.
His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo

The first post-Galileo RC scientist you mention is Louis Pasteur (1822-1895) was it really 250 years after Galileo before RCs achieved anything in science? Try Volta, Galvani, Lavoisier - after the counter-reformation died down RCs were able to get back up to speed. But by that time the Anglo-sphere had gained the initiative over the Catholo-sphere, although that was where the Renaissance had started.

Lessons from History, give your scientists a free head: Hitler disbelieved in "Jewish Science", thankfully.

@Visitor: "Dubious /Crazy? Is this the best you can do, chaver? How pitiful. What happened to your superior intellect?"

Is this directed at me? I thought some of posts of Stan and Tünde were crazy, and I said so. I don't think I have claimed to have a superior intellect.

I have no opinion on the history of the Catholic church in Hungary and its relationship to education and science, but I'm glad there is a debate going on about something other than minorities and multinationals, though I must admit I am a little unsure what the thrust of the main points are.

Keep it up!

Dubious,
If you don't understand the highly intelligent posts of Tunde and Stan, then you're not crazy, you're just dumb. Don't feel bad, you're not the only one with the IQ of a radish, it's becoming the standard these days.

Stan, I've heard that people shouldn't argue with a radish - they just lower the debate to their level and beat you with experience.

"If you don't understand the highly intelligent posts of Tunde and Stan, then you're not crazy, you're just dumb"
If Tunde and Stan set the levels for highly intelligent people in Hungary, the country is in deeper shit than I thought.

Adrian D., anon600ad: Although the idea of having serious debate on a site which is really a tabloid is kind of ridiculous, I did try. However, both you and anon have called me (and others) dishonest and then misrepresented my views, told me I have attributed extreme views, and extended others whiling doing both. You have taken my comments out of context and then twisted them. I have been working in government and education for most of my adult life, and to have two expats who apparently were trained in neither lecture me and others on being honest in debate, while being dishonest themselves is a bit too much. Both you (from experience) and anon, as it turns out researching the issue(!), know that my comment about migration from west and east holds. Demogogue was the only one actually to address the entire argument. That anon chose to counter with personal examples and no data is actually disturbing, because that makes me wonder about the scientific approach taking to his work, funded no doubt by an international development fund and assisted by a Hungarian institution. Sad that he will not post directly to me or, Visitor, but then picks or uses some of our points or addresses them to a third party, but this is the kind of mentality Robin Broad mentioned in her study of the World Bank. I came across this site because I was doing research on how Hungary is portrayed abroad, and the results are more than depressing. Anon wrote that forums are a way to blow off steam. I lived in South Korea for half a year. There are many things I hated about that country, but it would never have occurred to me to go on a website and use it to tell Koreans how awful their country is, how closeminded and racist they are, and how they need to change it, particularly given my knowledge of the history and culture of the country was limited, similar to many expats posting here. And there is no comparative posts. Someone posted a comment on how bad tax evasion was in Hungary. This was right after the OECD reported that this was a real problem in Germany and France, and they have had nothing like the history Hungary has had. I never thought I would start posting on this site, and I now see it has been a waste of time, but I was under the impression that there were expats genuinely interested in debate, I was mistaken.

Tunde,

"and I now see it has been a waste of time"

Does that mean that you will not be posting to this thread again, and hence this post too is a waste of time?

I'm sorry you feel this way. I have always found your posts informed and interesting, if a little frustrating. I don't remember "calling you dishonest", that honour I reserved for Ricsi. However, I have said that you have mispresented my views, but if you remember our exchanges over Robin Broad's paper, for me misrepresentation does not entail dishonesty, which requires intention to deceive. I do not think you intend to deceive anybody.

I think is it clear that everyone has their own motivation for posting to these forums. For me it is irrelevant that, as you correctly point out, the host site is a tabloid, or worse - Sexyside is pornographic. I'm interested in the opportunity to clarify my own ideas which discussion enables. And I need to emphasise that discussion rather than debate is my motivation. I find logos more persuasive than ethos or pathos.

@Adrian D /"I think both Marx and Teller were more interested
in glorifying Hungarian rather than Jewish genius." KOSHER
Hungarian genius… Marx would never even mention folks like
Jedlik, Farkas or Simonyi (although Charlie much like Joe
Esterhas caved in & crossed over to the dark side... Joe is back
though, from what I hear.) "Marx has chapters on Békésy, Szent-
Györgyi, and Bay…" Are you kidding? All of the above are British
agents, Nobel laureates and such a. k. a. B'nai Noah, sometimes
translated as "righteous gentiles." It's like Goebbels praising
Pétain or Quisling. "Likewise in his epilogue Teller emphasises
that "not all the Martians left Hungary" presumably the ones that
had nothing to fear from Nazism (including Jews) or
Communism." Why would they fear Communism when they
made and owned it? And Soros once said that the few weeks of
German occupation were his substitution for a happy childhood
or something similar so how bad could that have been? Have
you BTW heard that Teller was an avid supporter of Fidesz? "Still
not clear about the minta, RC or not?" Why not clear? Haven't I
clearly stated it was founded by *Jesuits* and was *Catholic* (yo
mama's "RC") until 1950 when it was renamed Ságvári Endre
iskola (Ságvári-Spitzer was a commie terrorist) and *ruined.*
It's called Trefort Ágoston Gyakorlóiskola now and still a mere
parody of its Catholic greatness.

@Adrian D. continued /"Yeah, the problems set in when
someone in the Vatican got round to reading it" Poppycock! To
remain flowery.. Heliocentric cosmology wasn't even his idea. He
just plagiarized Copernicus whose work was also approved by
the Church. To draw an example from current affairs Al Capone
was convicted of *tax fraud* but that wasn't really what was
wrong with him, was it? "The first post-Galileo RC scientist you
mention is Louis Pasteur (1822-1895) was it really 250 years
after Galileo before RCs achieved anything in science?" You
know or could or should know fully well that there is a LONG
uninterrupted list of Catholic scientists like Danti, Giordano
Bruno, Descartes, Lobkowitz, women like Maria Gaetana Agnesi,
priest, bishop-scientists before and since. Tunde is apparently
right when she accuses you of being a tad DODGY sometimes.
"Hitler disbelieved in 'Jewish Science', thankfully" It wasn't just
Hitler though, was it? Or didn't Kipling write about "Jews"
distorting social reality for their purposes and Einstein
disfiguring physical reality with his relativity theory and giving a
falsifying twist to the physical universe? "For me it is irrelevant
that, as you correctly point out, the host site is a tabloid, or
worse… I'm interested in the opportunity to clarify my own ideas
which discussion enables…" ABSOLUTELY! I feel the same way.
Item #2 that we agree on.

V.,

Cut and paste from wikipedia - is that also part of the Jewish conspiracy ??

Danti's work predates the argument over heliocentrism

"Giordano Bruno, was an early proponent of heliocentrism and the infinity of the universe. He is often considered an early martyr for modern scientific ideas, in part because he was burned at the stake as a heretic by the Roman Inquisition."

Descartes, spent most of his life teaching in Calvinist Holland - considering what happened to Bruno and Galileo, he probably felt much safer in protestant Europe. In 1663 the Pope placed his works on the Index of Prohibited Books.

"In 1750, on the illness of her father, [Maria Gaetana Agnesi] was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV to the chair of mathematics and natural philosophy at Bologna."
This Benedict XIV was a pretty sensible guy he "suspended the ban on heliocentric works on April 16, 1757 based on Isaac Newton's work." Allowing Catholics back into the mainstream scientific community.

I'll check out the Kipling stuff, but his scientific views were hardly important, British universities were a stopping off point for Jewish scientists on their way out west. Any sources for your British agents claim?

Visitor: >"For me it is irrelevant that, as you correctly point out, the host site is a tabloid, or
worse… I'm interested in the opportunity to clarify my own ideas which discussion enables…"

Ugye tisztában vagyunk azzal, milyen forgalmat generálunk ennek a bulvár csatornának.

Vagyis éppen mibelőlünk profitálnak.

@Tunde /"Ugye tisztában vagyunk azzal, milyen forgalmat
generálunk ennek a bulvár csatornának…" Tökéletesen! Bár a
forgalmat talán egymásnak generáljuk… A bőrünket viszont
tényleg mi visszük a vásárra, hiszen a megjegyzéseinkért nem
felelős a "bulvár csatorna" ( amiben mi is folydogál? :) A törvény
szerint ha jól tudom csak az adatainkat kell elköpniük, amit
valószínűleg már rég meg is tettek - vagyis a kocka
tulajdonképpen el van vetve - s mint a nehéz kő, ki tudja hol áll
meg... :-)

@Adrian D. /"Jewish conspiracy??" *Domination...* The butt
(buck?) naked emperor you pretend is well dressed. &,
domination by *skullduggery* at that since the scientific, etc.
superiority is a well generated myth. If Jewish scientists are so
great why did both the US and the Soviets need *German*
scientists to have a space program. Ditto nuclear weapons. Plus,
they are only Jewish in the sense we are Jewish since neither we
nor they are descendants of the biblical Hebrews. "Giordano
Bruno, was an early proponent of heliocentrism and the infinity
of the universe. He is often considered an early martyr for
modern scientific ideas, in part because he was burned at the
stake as a heretic by the Roman Inquisition." *Wrongly*
considered as the same Wikipedia entry makes abundantly clear
since Galileo, Bruno et al. were condemned for their attacks on
the Catholic faith and Church *not* for their scientific ideas that
were actually *approved* by the Inquisition. The first
astronomer to formulate a scientifically-based heliocentric
cosmology was in fact a Catholic cleric called Copernicus who
did not attack the Church and had consequently not been
prosecuted. "Any sources for your British agents claim?" /
answers.com/topic/albert-szent-gy-rgyi / go to 'later life' He
was a Soviet-British double agent apparently... Slick dude. &
dodgy. VERY dodgy ;-)

Evidence for a future starbucks (coffee-coloured) world:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/18/race-identity-britain-study

Hi Adrian, good to see you back. Sometime ago, you asked about perceptions of the police force and I just forgot to reply. (things got pretty crazy towards the end of the year). Are you still interested in this? If you are, are there specific questions you have?

Anon600ad,

"good to see you back"

And there was me thinking that you were the first of the "All Hungary Media Group" intelligensia to go into exile: see Tunde comment 195 on this thread, Ván on //www.realdeal.hu/20090114/hungarian-charities-receive-ft-900-million-funding-boost#c32 at January 17, 2009 12:03 AM

I haven't really been away, Visitor just tired me out on the "Catholics and Science" thread. And I had to rethink my posting strategy, the new name I suppose reflects this.

My questions are still pretty much as before - see comment 130 on this thread - but I'm now also curious about how the Magyar Gárda ban will play out. The police are on the front line of crime within the gypsy community - dealing with both victims and perpetrators, with the inevitable consequence that some of the them will be sympathetic to the aims of the Magyar Gárda. Infiltration? Tolerance? I am more than happy with the performance of the Hungarian police, but then I come from the UK and I am not a gypsy.

Hungary also seems to be faring well as the region slips into recession inspired civil disorder:

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/18/eu-riots-vilinius

or, so I am not further confused for a woolly minded liberal, something more hysterical:

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/4278642/Monetary-union-has-left-half-of-Europe-trapped-in-depression.html.

So Hungarian quietism: cultural predisposition or effective policing?

Sophist you are going to upset Tunde's genetic
biodiversity theory with that link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/18/race-
identity-britain-study: Comment 36 (Tunde)
"Overcrossbreeding is leading to a...
monoculture... We are losing our biodiversity, and
that includes humans. Obviously some mixing does
enrich cultures, to a point..." Tunde isn't racist
anyone, oh no, she's not racist... it's all taken
out of context... We are different human species
and we shouldn't mix. There is no difference
between phenotype, genotype, environment, culture
and ethnicity. Or maybe there is. Whatever, we
must not interbreed that is the point. And don't
forget that Tunde isn't racist.

Sophist...I can appreciate your sense of tiredness. Towards the end of last year, I was working my arse off trying to make a project deadline when Tunde's post 195 appeared. I thought about trying to answer it systematically, but those thoughts were always accompanied with an overwhelming sense of mental exhaustion. ...perhaps another time.
In regards to the police. That in itself could become the subject of a life's work. In short though, I'd have to say that Hungary's overall crime stats are not entirely dissimilar to other developed countries. I tend to think that the perception of high crime is largely a 'broken windows' sense. Of course there are areas and regions that have higher crime rates than others, and yes, many of these high crime areas are predominantly inhabited by Gypsies. I was based in Miskolc for a while and visited the county remand centre/prison. Incidentally, I was really impressed with the commandant there. He reported that 98% of the 'guests' were gypsy and that of them, many were in there for stealing, assault and other 'street crimes'. While I was there I also interviewed the prison psychiatrist, which led me to many interesting and related conclusions, not just about Hungary's criminal justice system, but mental health practice generally.
The second thing I have to say is that the police force in Hungary is not one big homogeneous unit. There are many different factions and alliances that operate in both vertical and horizontal directions. To name a few, there are the 'old guard', former communist era managers who still hold their posts and their old values, the older cops who just want to survive their last few years and get the pension, the younger reformers who often go crazy or get kicked out for rocking the boat and the young trainees who are little more than kids who are put in a sheltered environment for two years, then given guns and clubs and told to go out and keep the peace. Just about every police employee I met hated gypsies fervently. Considering the situations that the cops have to go into, this is not really surprising.
I think that police training is woefully inadequate in terms of social and emotional skills...both in terms of carrying out and coping with their job. I think that just as in many other countries, police are expected to solve problems beyond their role and that this is complicated by echoes of the past and that this often results in bad decisions and harmful behaviour.

I fully understand the sense of mistrust and resentment of Hungarians for the police force. I have to admit that there have been times when I have been afraid for my safety because of THEM. I also saw the reaction of people when they saw my card issued by the police for entry to facilities. To see people's eyes widen as they physically recoiled made me realise just how deep some of the feelings towards the police are. After that, I was very careful not to advertise my position, even if just for the comfort of others. After witnessing the way that some of the trainers and teachers operate in their attitude towards social issues, I also realised that whatever changes might be made to modernise the police, it is going to have to be a generational thing.
On top of all of this, the amalgamation of the Border Guards with the Police has led to quite a bit of resentment and confusion within the larger law enforcement community, with arguments about who should get what postings, and what issues belong to which departments.
To your other question about the Magyar Guarda, I actually specifically asked about this from an 'inspector' who was also my supervisor. His perception was just that for the most part they were a bunch of right-wing weirdos who paraded in the streets with flags and uniforms and who said inflammatory things, but mostly stayed within the bounds of the law. He didn't seem to see them as any kind of 'serious' threat. He didn't like gypsies because he used to work in a police station in the heart of the highest density and crime district in Miskolc. He said he got sick of constantly fearing for his life, and that is why he applied to become an instructor at the police college. For his part though, while he had justifiable reasons for his feelings, his philosophy was simple. He just stays away from them and tries as hard as possible not to contribute to the problem (or his own anxiety) by actively hating them.
I would like to finish by saying though that throughout the police form, I have a sense of the 'official line', and that whenever my questions make people nervous, there is an overwhelming sense of giving the 'right' answer. The communist era is definitely one of those areas, especially when the accidental/offhand comments made by some of the bosses chill me to the core.I could write about this all day, but I fear boring you.

@Sophist /"Visitor just tired me out on the "Catholics and Science"
thread" Come on Sophist you're just a sore loser. You discovered
that Europe's oldest observatory is at the papal residence in Castel
Gandolfo, changed your name, converted to Catholicism like
Graham Green or Blair (Tony not Eric who converted to something
entirely different…) & played dead. (Have you considered 'Slippy' or
'Chicken' for a new name too or was 'Sophist' your only choice?)

@anon /"Hi Adrian… are there specific questions you have?" I
have some specific questions, if you don't mind since you're
such a law enforcement insider… Have you had any personal
experiences with Gypsies OUTSIDE jail or prison? What is your
take on the Zsanett and Ophélie affairs? Are the cops allowed to
commit crimes including bank robbery and rape to compensate
for their low pay or does the "government" just need them too
much to punish them? How do you feel about the FBI's unique
powers http://tinyurl.com/agvrr9 in Hungary? Is it friggin'
outrageous or a good thing? "I fully understand the sense of
mistrust and resentment of Hungarians for the police force. I
have to admit that there have been times when I have been
afraid for my safety because of THEM." What happened? "The
communist era is definitely one of those areas, especially when
the accidental/offhand comments made by some of the bosses
chill me to the core." Such as?

@Visitor: "The facts of his trial have been
distorted for political reasons. His science was *approved* by the Church. His "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" was published with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission in 1632."
Really, that's a generous interpretation of things. Let's here it from a catholic source: "Galileo was intent on ramming Copernicus down the throat of Christendom. The irony is that when he started his campaign, he enjoyed almost universal good will among the Catholic hierarchy. But he managed to alienate almost everybody with his caustic manner and aggressive tactics. His position gave the Church authorities no room to maneuver: they either had to accept Copernicanism as a fact (even though it had not been proved) and reinterpret Scripture accordingly; or they had to condemn it. He refused the reasonable third position which the Church offered him: that Copernicanism might be considered a hypothesis, one even superior to the Ptolemaic system, until further proof could be adduced." (http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0005.html )
So they had, 'no room for maneuver'! So Galileo was allowed to believe in a hypothesis as long as he didn't use reason and argument to persuade others of its merits, or display 'tactless importunity'. He was executed in 1642, his works were only finally accepted by the Catholic church in full in 1741 by Benedict XIV, though the church only lifted the ban on Galileo's Dialogue in 1822 and only in 1992 was Galileo fully pardoned.

Visitor...Hi. I just read your post with the questions. I'll answer it as soon as I have a bit more time to think through it all.

Visitor...to answer your questions: I think the very idea of FBI agents carrying guns and operating freely within Hungary is just fundamentally wrong. While I do doubt the effectiveness and efficiency of Hungarian law-enforcement, I think the answer is to improve this, rather than taking the 'short cut' of just letting someone else do their thing. I can't imagine the US allowing Hungarian agents to do the same on their soil.
Police corruption varies a lot from opportunism to deeper systemic problems. I have seen a lot of nepotism, favouritism and good old fashioned intimidation. Some of that has affected me directly when I had to play a game of brinkmanship with management that I 'won' only with the help of a very wise, well-connected and sympathetic officer. That whole thing made me physically sick. Especially when I was informed that 'the deal you made has changed, so remember who you are and who we are.' Staff who try to make friends with me are reminded that 'the walls have ears' Fortunately for me, the chance of ongoing funds to embezzle means that my reports to the funding agency still carry enough weight to give them pause.
As far as Ophelie and Zsanett goes. The official line is that cops are subject to the law like everyone else, but the reality is different. I think there is a culture of turning a blind eye, lest one finds themselves in a similar situation, as well as a lingering sense that the police are above the law. The Hungarian police department for me definitely presented itself as a state within a state. One of the questions I ask trainees is why they chose to become police officers. Often, the response is 'two years guaranteed employment, early retirement, it makes me someone'. As I mentioned, their training in terms of social and emotional skills is almost non-existent, so you have a lot of immature and ill-equipped 'kids' out there with more power than they know how to handle. This is made worse by an institutional culture of laziness and opportunism. Alcoholism and depression in the police force is rife. So a lack of quality is no surprise. In short. I am not one to speculate about Zsanett and Ophelie. I doubt there is a conscious conspiracy. It wouldn't surprise me though if it fell into that 'conspiracy of culture' that avoids asking the necessary questions. When there is so much incompetence, inefficiency and corruption to go around, the government is hardly going to attack the one institution that has the ability to fight back.

As I said in a previous post. On the whole, Hungary's crime stats are not so different to comparable countries. I think it often looks worse than it is because of the proliferation of graffiti and vandalism, as well as the inability of local councils, who for whatever reason, are unable to regularly provide services like street cleaning and road maintenance. Also, with large numbers of cashed up tourists through Budapest, there is a 'target rich environment' for pick-pockets, muggers and greedy cab-drivers.
For me though, the problem of how to deal with crime really is that people often confuse social issues with law and order issues. This, however, is where it all gets really complicated. Expecting the police to solve these issues is futile, firstly because of what I wrote previously, but also because simply punishing people just doesn't change their behaviour, while not punishing just enables it. Put simply, there is no simple answer. Hungary has long-standing serious social issues that I think will take generational change. There is both vertical and horizontal social disconnection in Hungary...neighbours against neighbours...and government having little idea of who 'the people' are.
I have had a few experiences with Gypsies outside work. I was once scared for my life by a guy who went berserk on the red-line and took numerous cops and kontrol to subdue him. I saw a young gypsy guy beating his girlfriend in the company of his friends. Conversely, while I was out of the country, my girlfriend was put in hospital. While her idiot mother was more concerned with milking sympathy for herself, the only person who went to visit her and make sure she was ok, was a girl her mother calls 'that Roma bitch'. The Gypsy people are not saints. Yes, there is a lot of crime and social mess. My argument though is that hating and isolating them further will not change their behaviour.If anything, it just gives them more justification to keep doing what they're doing.
I don't like being a target for sarcasm and hatred on the basis of the view that I hate Hungary or Hungarians.Yes, I have made mistakes, and I genuinely challenge my own beliefs constantly. I am not the enemy, and neither do I think I'm the Messiah. I'm just an expat who works hard and tries to contribute as much as possible to the world around me.I bear no specific malice to you or anyone else and much prefer amicable conversation such as the most recent of your posts.I hope 2009 is good to you.Sincerely.

I just want to clarify a statement at the end of my last post. I don't hate Hungary. I don't hate Hungarians. Hungary is beautiful and some of the Hungarians I have encountered are among the nicest and most sincere people I've ever met.

@anon600ad / "simply punishing people just doesn't change
their behavior" It does. Not necessarily in ways we wish their
behaviour would change though. &, how much of our behavior
or _destiny are we responsible for anyway when we are not
masters of our own destiny as shown by not just the FBI's
arrogance in Hungary but other misc. outrages such as the
missile silos that were built in Tubes, Zengő & who knows
where else despite Hungarian protests and referenda. Or
observe our hijacked energy sector while some of us are literally
freezing to death. & we have not even mentioned Israel "buying
us up" according to vozhd Peres. USAID writes our schools'
curricula… The list is endless. "hating and isolating them further
will not change their behaviour" We have lived with Gypsies for
CENTURIES, don't you think we know them? Have you even seen
a Gypsy before you came to Hungary? &, despite your girl
friend's mentally challenged mom and the Commies constantly
calling Orban a Gypsy bastard the Hungarian terms cigány or
zsidó describe social class or _behavior not race which is a
concept that is completely alien to us and which by the way
doesn't even matter much. What matters is the nightmare our
society (societies now) is turned into since "we are free." We are
only allowed to collect statistics about Gypsies to avoid all Gypsy
schools, according to which half of all kids starting school last
year were Gypsies. The collection of any other data about
Gypsies is verboten. We don't even know how many they are or
any social metric whatsoever. We're not even allowed to say
Gypsy as if saying Roma instead of Gypsy would change
anything. It's insane. "I don't like being a target for sarcasm and
hatred on the basis of the view that I hate Hungary or
Hungarians… I am not the enemy I'm just an expat who works
hard and tries to contribute as much as possible to the world
around me…" I don't hate you at all, I have never thought you
were an enemy and I probably hate some Hungarians more than
you do.

@anon600ad continued /You have also changed since last year.
Your anger, well justified I am sure, seems to have gone. Or you
have just become more disciplined. Whichever the case may be I
am glad for you. I can't help wondering though why you were hired
for your job instead of a Hungarian. I mean the Anglosphere is
dumping more and more labor on us, among the many other things
that we are dumped on. IBM even has a 'Project Match'
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?
storyId=100352096 to send laid off people here to work for less
money. Do you think it's fair to anyone? And again, who benefits?

@Clueless_Bystander /The Galileo legend is part of the Anglican-
Israelite campaign to destroy the Church. He is basically lionized
for trying to do the same back then. It is one of the more ridiculous
pieces propaganda though considering that G. just plagiarized
Copernic who was actually *endorsed* by the Pope AND the
Inquisition long before sleazeball got what he had coming. And a
farce considering that the Church created modern astronomy and
the oldest truly scientific astronomical observatory of Europe is at
the papal residence in Castel Gandolfo (the original was built when
Galileo was a teenager). or did you think the Gregorian calendar
was born from Isaac of York's forehead after he ate his pregnant
wife?

Visitor: "The Galileo legend is part of the Anglican-Israelite campaign to destroy the Church" The reference quoted was catholiceducation.org (http://www.catholiceducation.org/ ). What you are trying to say is that even the catholic church is now part of the conspiracy to destroy the catholic church. Sit down, rest a while and take a sip of water - then try again.

Lest anyone should think that Galileo vs the Popes is not a live news issue, check out the London Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5612996.ece

Visitor,

I'm intrigued, but since my guess is that you would regard the Times as part of the "Anglican-Israelite campaign to destroy the Church", could you comment on it's reporting.

"Monsignor Ravasi noted that the Second Vatican Council had "indirectly" apologised in the 1960s for the Church's treatment of Galileo, and that the late Pope John Paul II had done so explicitly, saying in 1992 that the Church had made "a tragic error"."

Would you say "apology" is fair representation of JPII's 1992 statement?

@Sophist /"Would you say 'apology' is fair representation of JPII's
1992 statement?" 1. Yes, it was an apology, but an apology *for
what?* 2. Is this meant to gloss over the total flop of your
libelous Catholicism vs. science paradigm? 3. Allow me to not
comment on the Times… It would be too ugly. How do you btw feel about bishop Williamson? I bet you are bursting with pride!
I bet he'll be the next Pope. An English Pope… Imagine that!
@Ignorant_Bystander /"The reference quoted was
catholiceducation.org" It was indeed. Have you actually read it? If
yes, *do you know what you have read* or have your prejudices
completely filtered out the content? Like, sip on this: "when
[Galileo] heard about the invention of the telescope in Holland,
he immediately built one for himself, characteristically taking
full credit for the invention... :) What an asshole! (G not you)

V.,

"but an apology *for what?*"

I was hoping for your view on this. The Times implies JPII's apology was "for the Church's treatment of Galileo", but it's an implication not a statement.

Do you think JPII apologised for the Church's treatment of Galileo, or for something else?

Visitor: Actually, I have often wondered myself why I was hired instead of a Hungarian. The answer though, is more about money and fame than anything else. The police force is under pressure to meet 'EU standards'. They provide bucket loads of money to fund the bringing in of professionals to achieve this. It all sounds 'great' until you realise that although official policy may have changed, much of the middle-management and their attitudes haven't. As I may have mentioned before, the Police are a closed community, with each of the districts, and in particular the schools, competing very heavily for a bigger slice of the budget. So, in an effort to look 'cutting edge' and to once again remind everyone else that 'we are the biggest Law Enforcement School in Hungary', they applied for the above-mentioned funds to hire me. From the beginning it was a disaster in the making. Everything was a mess, but because I had committed to it, I felt I couldn't just back out. Anyway, to get to the point. I was hired so they could put a nice little section on their website about me and how amazing they are, as well as taking delivery of a SHITLOAD of money, which they then proceeded to take every effort to 'invest in the cost of the programme'(put in their own pockets). When it became apparent that there was no practical way to steal 'legally' and they would have to give it back, and when it became obvious that the 'naive expat' they chose wasn't quite as naive as they hoped (ie, I refused to lie on my reports and outmaneuvered the crooked supervisor) things became rather hostile. This is when I started to fear for my safety. Nevertheless, I always do my best to deliver as much as possible under the circumstances and I figured that at the very least I could channel some much needed income into Hungary through my spending and taxes (which I could have claimed at home and paid less). I felt it was the decent thing to do. There are Hungarians working in similar positions to mine, making mine kind of superfluous, however, I drive myself to always find ways to justify my salary. At the very least, I always fill all of my allocated working hours, which, I might add is on average about three hours a day more than most of my colleagues, who straight after lunch, piss off home to do their private lessons while still being paid to be at work.

I think I have met some of the best and some of the worst during my time in Hungary. I have made some great friends, who I am sure I will stay in contact with long after I leave. I am eternally grateful to those who helped me navigate the Hungarian health system when my girlfriend was in need. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of both active and 'benign' corruption, and just plain old bureaucratic incompetence. Incidentally, Hungary is equal 47th in the least corrupt stakes (http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/cpi2008/cpi_2008_table) which although not being stellar, is really not bad when you Slovakia at 52 or Russia at 147)
Maybe I am both a bit less angry and a bit more disciplined, I guess I realised that being emotional was not going to help me to make good decisions.
By the way, yes, I take your point that punishing people can change behaviour in that it can make it worse, or even further from the desirable. This still supports my theme though that while I agree that it is wrong to enable negative behaviour, just imprisoning people only makes things worse. I worked on a really interesting project a while back about the benefits of education programmes for at risk groups and for prison inmates in lowering recidivism. The upshot being that it works, and is cost effective, but does not fit within election cycle dynamics, and is unpopular because of the community sense of 'rewarding criminals'. (which I accept is no trivial matter) Like I said before, I think there is a difference between law and order issues, and social issues. I came to the point with the Gypsy issue that I am just not 'qualified' to preach because (a) I'm not Hungarian (b)Hungary has more than this issue to worry about right now and (c)My country has its own share of human rights issues that it can't solve. I have met Gypsies before my Hungary experience, as well as having a long experience with other groups that represent a similar social strata in society. I even got punched in the face once while working at an awareness raising event by one of the people it was organised for. Such is life I guess. For what it's worth, I think there is some sense in creating 'work for welfare' schemes or nationally owned industries that make something useful to employ people. Even if it makes a loss, I figure welfare payment without return is a loss anyway, so at least this way you get a product and hopefully less crime.

@anon600ad /I appreciate the hell out of your recent comments.
They are frank without being offensive and provide a fascinating
insight into both the expat experience and how "sausages are
made in rump Hungary" (as in: laws? /politics? like sausages,
cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are
made - Bismarck?). And, I am relly impressed by how you have
handled both. But, how unique is all this to Hungary? Isn't this
how organizations work everywhere? The only difference being
MONEY. Where and how you get your financing or if you are
allowed to keep your wealth and/or resources. So I completely
agree with Bogár that [süllyedésünk] "alapvető oka a
túldimenzionált birodalmi kifosztás, [ha] nem teszünk eléggé
határozott javaslatot a birodalomnak arra, hogy a függési
rendszer anyagi és szimbolikus javakat szállító, mozgató
szivattyúit hogyan állítsuk át, akkor a... katasztrófa
elkerülhetetlen..." I. e. we can't even think of _surviving before
we accomplish what he is suggesting, but, how doable is that?
What do you think?

@S /"apology was 'for the Church's treatment of Galileo'" So, what?
Did anyone admit that the Church was wrong or did the Church
endorse the Galileo legend or imply it has anything to do with
actual facts or history? Not so much, although Times & Co. try to
put exactly that kind of spin on it. DO put exactly that kind of spin
on it since the Anglican-Israelite propaganda juggernaut is running
cicles around Vatican PR again, as usual. I just wish Benedetto &
Co. would stop caving in to them. Gestures of good will are
completely wasted on these life forms and apologies too are as
meaningles as they are annoying and ridiculous. They are just
taken as signs of weakness, twisted, and then the Church looks
even worse.